Horse pulls down and dolphin-hops after jumps... HELP before I break my neck!

[Pokerface]

@atl_hunter

Not going to argue with you. Of COURSE they aren’t the same! But the basics absolutely are.

We can agree to disagree.

I mean, short stirrup hunters and performance hunters are “the same”, but they are also not. Why people want to continue to argue that hunters/jumpers do not/cannot truly do dressage is beyond me. They should be able to do whatever dressage they are capable of AND jump jumps.

I will say that I was pretty pleased when the Grand Prix clinician told me my horse could absolutely be an upper level dressage competition horse. That’s not my ambition for him, but it was nice to hear that he has the talent for some of the more precise requirements of upper level dressage.

[SillyHorse]

@endlessclimb

I doubt that a hunter is ever going to be asked to raise their sternum and SIT the way a “proper dressage” horse will. The level and precision of everything expected in dressage is where the difference lies.

Again, you are arguing about the upper levels of dressage. The rest of us are talking about the lower levels.

[scislandsprite]

Some hunter barns even do ask for more than just the basics of dressage! I briefly boarded at a competitive barn that did both hunters and jumpers so I was pleasantly surprised to see how advanced the dressage was in lessons even though it wasn’t the true focus. Many of these riders were able to ask the horses to truly sit and collect as well as extend correctly in their lessons over fences, really nice to see.

[Brown_Derby]

I once overheard an UL eventer tell her student, “You can fudge the half halt at the letter, but you HAVE to get it for the jump. So get it letter-perfect on the flat.”

Made sense to me.

[Spud_amp_Saf]

I will never get this whole idea that is out there that hunter/jumper riders are seemingly incapable of “dressage” - I mean, hunters, by nature are relaxed and rhythmical, which, last I checked are the fundamentals of the dressage training scale. In fact, I would reckon there are lot more hunters further ahead in this areas than a lot of “dressage” horses.

Who are all these hunter jumper riders that can seemingly manage to hold a near perfect canter rhythm and find 8 perfect jumps that are completely incapable of grasping the concepts of the basic elements of dressage.

Anyways, carry on :).

[Darkwave]

Isn’t this all semantics? Some people draw a distinction between flatwork and dressage, with the latter being limited to riding in a long flapped saddle with letters on the wall. Other people lump that all in as “dressage.”

I’m pretty sure that any decent hunter-jumper barn does a great deal of “dressage” in the all-inclusive broader sense. They just don’t call it that.

[Mander]

I tend to agree - that, coupled with that occasional snooty gate-keeper who pounces on someone for suggesting their hunter was doing dressage with “BuT tHaT’s NoT rEaL dReSsAgE” leaves many (including myself) pretty gun-shy of calling it that IME.

[Pokerface]

@Darkwave

Isn’t this all semantics? Some people draw a distinction between flatwork and dressage, with the latter being limited to riding in a long flapped saddle with letters on the wall. Other people lump that all in as “dressage.”

I’m pretty sure that any decent hunter-jumper barn does a great deal of “dressage” in the all-inclusive broader sense. They just don’t call it that.

Well that’s it really. Some do better "dressage’’ than others and I’m sure the jumps match that to a degree. What confuses me is the pearl-clutching at the mention of doing some dressage. Even dedicated dressage horses and riders had to start somewhere. It’s all just a spectrum!

[Pokerface]

@Mander

I tend to agree - that, coupled with that occasional snooty gate-keeper who pounces on someone for suggesting their hunter was doing dressage with “BuT tHaT’s NoT rEaL dReSsAgE” leaves many (including myself) pretty gun-shy of calling it that IME.

Hmm, good point. I’m lucky not to be surrounded by those types so I honestly hadn’t considered that a reason that h/j people would shy away from calling our flatwork “dressage”. My assessment of those snooty gate-keeper types:

1. THEY don’t know what real dressage is, nor it’s purpose.
2. They probably have a lot of bling. Fancy browbands are the badge for those types.
3. They bought a pretty made horse to do “real dressage on”
4. They don’t truly understand the mechanics of how a horse moves and powers itself.
5. Their opinion isn’t worth much.

[Mander]

Yeah, gatekeeping is a silly thing to do, generally motivated by hubris or insecurity, or maybe both. In any case, the only thing it’s good at doing is alienating people who might otherwise want to learn and really contribute to a community.

That being said, I hate confrontation and try to choose my battles wisely. I will happily only claim to only know/do “mere flatwork” if it will avoid me a dumb argument with someone who just wants to feel “better than” rather than have an actual, constructive discussion. It’s no skin off my back if they want to think they’re better than me

[Horselove5]

@SillyHorse

This is not true at the lower levels.

I’m not talking about any levels here, but everyday riding. It’s basic physics - siting the trot will help you feel your horse better.

@SillyHorse

There is no need to sit the trot or even to lengthen stirrups for basic dressage work,

Meredith Michaels Beerbaum begs to differ in her explanational videos (sorry can’t link as subscibtion required). Basically she stresses out the point that she always lenghtenes her stirrups for the flatwork.

@foursocks

What is a schenkel?

Apologies. In equestrian sense, it defines the rider’s leg in constant connection to the horse’s body (basically inner side from hips to ankles). And BTW I fully agree with what you say,but instead or the term “German” dressage, I’ll just use “classical” dressage.

@atl_hunter

a dressage horse will always, always, ALWAYS need to maintain impulsion and straightness (opposite of the common hunter “leg yield” to the rail) to make it’s change.

I fully agree with all you said in your post I’d like to add that in classical dressage the cue should always come from the outside leg; never do any horse bending, rain shifting or seat tilting!

[Mander]

@Horselove5

Basically she stresses out the point that she always lenghtenes her stirrups for the flatwork.

I’ve always wondered about this. I know many people lengthen their stirrups for their flatwork, but that always feels a bit counterintuitive to me. Presumably we want to do dressage with hunters/jumpers not only to strengthen and supple them, but to also help improve adjustability (among other things) between the fences. If that’s the case, wouldn’t you want to ride your flatwork how you ride your jumps? We all know those horses who do well with riders with a longer/shorter leg because that was how they were trained and where they’re expecting their cues, so it just seems unfair to change our leg position and expect the horse to just magically carry everything over from flatwork days and have it click over fences.

Practice how you perform and all…

[Jackie_Cochran]

I ride Forward Seat. During my very brief stint (3 months) as a student at a residential Forward Seat school we were expected to be able to do the three speeds of all gaits, we were expected to be able to bring our horses back gently (no jerking of reins, no sawing of the bit), we were expected to do turns properly, we approached all jumps with impulse while under control, etc., etc., etc… If we did not do it to the standards of our teacher (Kay Russell) you can be sure that we heard about it immediately and she was not into saving our egos. I think my ears got blistered a few times while I was there.

The French word dressage is supposed to mean training–any type of training that improves the horse as a riding horse. Forward Seat does NOT use classical dressage collection.

My first horse, Hat Tricks, was not getting worked since I had two other horses I was training. A dressage rider who needed a confidence builder leased him (she had been taking dressage lessons for years, statewide reserve champion, then her horse traumatized her for some reason). She brought out the barn owner/hunt seat teacher AND her dressage teacher from where she boarded to check him out.

Neither of them could believe how responsive Hat Tricks was. The barn owner’s comment was “you ask him to do something and he just does it!” Her dressage teacher’s comment after riding him was “buy him.” Hat Tricks had never had any dressage training, he had never been used in a dressage lesson, I had trained and ridden him Forward Seat ONLY. But those dressage ladies really liked him, his responsiveness, how he could alter his stride, how he could rate his impulsion, and his cheerful OBEDIENCE to the lightest aids.

Yeah, I train the horses (elderly lesson horses now), but I do not use classical dressage to train them. In spite of that the horses tend to improve with my riding to become much more pleasant riding horses. EVERY horse I ride gets schooled at the three speeds of a gait. EVERY horse I ride gets schooled to be responsive to leg and hand aids, the lighter the better. I work on honest contact, preferably light contact, I ride back to front because dang it I ride Forward Seat and we are all about riding back to front.

Dressage, as in using collection, is NOT the only way to a well trained horse. Humane training that works WITH the horse and its limitations is also a way to get a well trained horse if you know what you are doing.

[SillyHorse]

@Horselove5

@SillyHorse

There is no need to sit the trot or even to lengthen stirrups for basic dressage work,

Meredith Michaels Beerbaum begs to differ in her explanational videos (sorry can’t link as subscibtion required). Basically she stresses out the point that she always lenghtenes her stirrups for the flatwork.

Good for her, really. But you have missed my point entirely. No matter who lengthens their stirrups, it simply isn’t necessary for teaching the basics: straightness, rhythm, a little lateral work.

Then, of course, for every Meredith Beerbaum, there’s a Beezie Madden to prove my point.

@Angela_Freda

John and Beezie Madden clinics that I audited were very much Dressage focused, while sitting in a Jumping saddle, with shorter jumping length stirrups.

[Horselove5]

@Mander

I’ve always wondered about this. I know many people lengthen their stirrups for their flatwork, but that always feels a bit counterintuitive to me

It’s the biomechanics. When you have your stirrup a hole longer for the flatwork, you can feel & interact with the horse’s body better (your leg has more surfice), your knee & heels cannot go up and block your back. You want flexibility to follow/balance with the horse’s movements. At least that’s how I learn it back home.

[vxf111]

Yeah your average 2’6 hunter ammy isn’t riding true upper level dressage but, not for nothing, your equivalent weekend warrior dressage rider showing training level isn’t either. The basics are very much the same at training level and first level. It’s only above that where the differences start to truly show up… and even then most hunter/jumper riders capable of higher levels of jumping would also be capable of higher level dressage if they needed to learn/do it for some reason.

[MapleBreeze]

My bad, I didn’t realize it had navicular changes. If that’s the case why are they still jumping the horse?

[MadTrotter]

You’re not surrounded by them because they are fictional. Is there a small gaggle of 12 year old brats somewhere who said that some time to someone? Perhaps; in the cosmic sense that anyone can say anything. But dressage is really NOT a gate keeping culture and none of the dozens of trainers I know stateside or in NZ (the horse cultures I know best) would EVER look down on anyone for showing interest in dressage.

And yeah, that includes Western dressage too

[skydy]

@Tiedtotheride

NEW TO CHRONICLE ADVICE FORUM…

I have been working with this horse on and off for nearly 5 years. I love him and refuse to give up on him, but i do not own him. He’s a 17 hand selle francais gelding. He has always been a bit ‘naughty’, nonetheless he is super talented, smart, and an absolute blast when he is good. His biggest problem is that he’s a bit of an opportunist when it comes to the back side of the jumps. When he touches down on the backside with his front hooves, he throws all of his weight into his front end, rips his head down, and bucks/dolphin hops. It is truly impossible to hang on. Again, he has done this since even before my trainer aquired him in 2012. And also in my 20 years of experience riding jumping horses, this is the scariest and most painful way to fall. To combat this, we have tried to develop a distinct way to ride him and negate this behavior - deep seat, small release, hands up and always lifting, must be quick to get back in the saddle on the backside. Even then, he finds ways to get away with it.

I had taken some time away from him to work with my OTTB, and also on the accord that I had promised myself I wouldn’t get back on him again after he quite literally ‘pile-drove’ me face first into the dirt after landing from a combination which resulted in some permanent muscle damage a few years ago. This is his signature move…

We have had him evaluated by vets countless times, and had many x-rays done. We have a reputable saddle fitter that has double and triple checked the tack we use on him. Most recently during a lease he did show some slight navicular changes in his front feet. He was given the ok to go back to light jumping work with corrective shoeing. The leasor ended her lease early because he scared her so badly and he was left to sit. My trainer refuses to include him in the lesson program and wont even ride him herself because she thinks he is too dangerous, so i took him back on as a rehab project. Besides starting off a bit stiff, he works out of it quickly and is back to 100% soundness after cantering, so we’ve started him back over very small jumps and cross rails after a couple months of just flatwork. I wanted to bring him back to the basics and see if i could correct some of the issues I felt he was experiencing through correcting his gaits and how he carries himself. I even stretch him before getting on to ride (stifles, shoulders, and neck).

This past Saturday, I hopped on for a ride and could feel him balling up under me going towards the jump, but it felt more like excitement than pain. We cantered into a barely 18" three stride, but came in long and he was so heavy I couldn’t get him back up to fit the third stride in. We left long, and he characteristically planted his front feet, ripped his head down and planted me so hard on the backside, I actually herniated a disc in my upper back and suffered a small concussion. I literally fell straight to the top of my head. I still got back on and made him trot into the line and hault a couple times just to prove a point to him.

I refuse to give up on him, but am at a loss for things to try that would either lessen his pain or bad behavior. You would think if it was his front end hurting from the navicular problems that he wouldn’t try to launch his entire body weight into it on the backside of the jump. Also, he doesn’t pin his ears when he pulls his signature move like other horses I’ve ridden do when they are uncomfortable. He gets both lead changes nicely and is quite willing to go forward when asked. He rarely takes advantage like that when hacking, but will if he hasn’t been worked in a week or two. I can normally handle it just at the hack, but when he does it and you’re not yet back seated from the two point, there is NO hope for hanging on. At shows, he MUST be lunged before attempting to ride him. When i call him from the field, he is so excited to come see me he normally gallops up throwing in some pretty impressive bucks in while also whinney-ing quite loudly. So it’s hard for me to believe he’s in a terrible amount of pain, but I also don’t feel like he would act out so viciously without some type of discomfort. If this is a habit he’s learned, I don’t know what to do to break it. He actually came to us with these same habits, but the navicular changes were just recognized last year. Aside from the riding issues, he is quite the trickster on the ground as well. You have to be quick to close the stall doors, as he will trample and run over you to get out if he sees the right opening. He will also try to rip away from you and run away while trying to graze him. NO ONE is allowed to lead him without the chain over his nose

Currently, he is going in a full-cheek slow twist. My trainer and i both think a drop noseband would behoove him but i am open to all suggestions and different outlooks. Obviously there is something my trainer, myself, and possibly even the vets are missing out on. I do not want this horse’s life to be wasted because no one would stick it out with him. I love him, even with his antics. Please help me help my Joshua!

@MapleBreeze

My bad, I didn’t realize it had navicular changes. If that’s the case why are they still jumping the horse?

That information was included in the opening post of this thread.

[Mander]

That’s why they do it for dressage and I understand that. But I’m asking specifically for h/j - why would you want to train your horse differently than you compete, especially if you’re anticipating all of those flatwork basics to carry over to your jumping?

If shortening my stirrups changes the way I’m capable of using my body and the way I’m able to give my aids, to the point that it truly makes a difference (which it obviously does) then it only seems intuitive that I should predominantly train and practice my flatwork using my “compromised” shorter stirrups because when I’m in a jump off, I want my horse to understand exactly what I’m asking without having to “translate” it.

Maybe if I’m working more advanced dressage specifically in an effort to build strength and coordination in my horse, as opposed to training I expect to use in the jumper ring, I could see why you’d use longer stirrups. But I’d estimate that’s not really the case for the majority of riders.