Horse pulls down and dolphin-hops after jumps... HELP before I break my neck!

[IPEsq]

A horse certainly can buck on landing due to front foot pain. I had a lease horse teach me this the hard way. He had big feet but turns out needed to have them left a bit longer. Or he’d be a little foot sore, apparently. He was a nice mover, and it was nothing obvious, but one day landing off a large oxer after he got trimmed, I could’ve earned myself a shiny belt buckle.

The balling up feeling is not excitement in a way humans would use the term. That’s anxiety. I’ve known lame horses who are happy enough to jump in that they won’t just refuse the jumps, but they’ll let you know about some discomfort on the back side. And they will get anxious. For example, a horse with stifle or hock issues might jump fine but be worried about the lead change he might need after. That starts manifesting as anxiety to and after the jump and possibly landing and bucking.

This has been going on for a long time with this horse. Just because your vet didn’t find something your vet thinks is serious doesn’t mean the horse does not have pain that horse thinks is serious.

I absolutely would stop jumping this horse.

[CBoylen]

You have your answer, it’s the front feet. 90% of the time the ones that do this on landing, it’s the front feet. Even if they are fixable though usually the horse never unlearns it, both because it’s a neat trick almost impossible to stick, and because people start riding with a short release and sitting up immediately on landing, replacing the front feet pain with mouth and back pain and reinforcing the idea that landing hurts. In any case, generally not a fixable learned habit. Your trainer is smarter than you are, don’t jump the horse.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

OP
I admire you for trying, but I believe you should quit while you are ahead.

What you want to happen may be possible, but not probable.

You cannot turn this horse into a lesson horse.
End of.
He does not have the temperament and you do not have the skill set.

Without extensive and expensive diagnostic work, it is useless and dangerous to persevere when you don’t know if his behaviors are pain induced or simply because of bad early training.

If you want to save this horse then buy him and then you can plan a course of action that might include dressage lessons, or sending him to a dressage trainer for a set number of days .

I agree with IpEsq.
Stop jumping him for his sake and yours.

You’ve gotten some really good advice from very wise horsewomen.
Even if you don’t listen to mine , please listen to them.

[scislandsprite]

Hm interesting, how does he compare without a rider? Easiest way to see would probably be to lunge him over some small jumps in just a halter or a free jump chute so you can maybe get footage to analyze? Also helps to show exactly when he’s bucking & how he’s bucking.
Edit: Probably shouldn’t do it now since he’s still uncomfortable but if you have any prior film.

However, I do have to say I’d be really nervous to get on this horse even if I was the best rider in the world. Would definitely talk to the owner and get their thoughts

[Bending_Line]

When I was much younger, we had a nice TB mare who had shown second year green on the A Circuit and was as made as can be on the flat. Lovely mover, auto changes that were so easy you could do 2-tempi changes with her, and she was a big (16.3) and correct mare with a lot of substance. You would never guess in a million years that she had any soundness problems. Then one summer day, she bucked my mom off the landing side of an oxer while jumping in a big grass ring. After that, she started to root and buck on the landing side of smaller jumps, on sand footing, in smaller spaces, etc. I was convinced in those days that if I just tried to approach the jumps super-soft, at the trot, and stay out of her way, she would come around and settle down. In those days, I was not conditioned/educated to think that getting strong or bucking after a fence was a soundness issue as opposed to a training issue. In any event, fast forward a year or so, a tumor emerged on an inside hind leg and continued to grow. In retrospect, I think it had been growing internally for some time and causing her discomfort. I feel very guilty in hindsight that I put her through a pointless series of small jumps, pulling up on the landing side, backing up, repeating, all in a vain effort to “school” her out of something that I am convinced now had a physical root. I would never do it again, and actually this forum over the years has really helped open my eyes on what a pain response can look like. We have a barn full of horses now and I have come to appreciate that almost none of them act up to be fresh or rank–that if they are not coming around with quiet riding, consistent handling, daily turn out, and appropriate nutrition, then there is likely a physical root cause that is not going to go away because someone thinks they are a hot-shot rider. I have also learned to take satisfaction from a range of riding scenarios for different horses at different ages–I have nothing to prove, and if I have one who is happiest walking the trails with my dogs on a loose rein (probably because of some underlying soundness issues), that is a perfectly noble calling and she does not need to be made to jump around a course so that I can prove something to myself or others.

[Renn_aissance]

OP, this horse is going to kill you. You said it yourself: “HELP before I break my neck!”

The trainer won’t jump it. The professional person who has care, custody, and control of this animal won’t jump it. You are pouring a ton of energy, money (?!- unclear who’s paying for this horse’s upkeep) and time into trying to get this horse to participate in a sport he’s saying loud and clear is not possible for him.

Juniors bounce when they come off, but we, as card-carrying amateurs, grew out of that. We splat now. Stop jumping this horse before you go splat so hard you have to navigate the US medical insurance system while on bed rest.

Having said that, flatwork is fun, and if this horse is doing that comfortably, go do that or trail ride or have fun with this animal. He is not having fun at this time. And neither are you, so stop trying to die young.

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

Nope. Goodbye, horse.
If the pro won’t get on it, and won’t let others on it… that should be all the indication you need to understand that this one is dangerous and unpredictable. Life is a crapshoot without having to add in the known and expected bad behavior. Whether he’s naughty, in pain, or just has your number and knows it’s an easy copout to skip work, it’s time to call it a day before you really break something or worse.
Plenty of people have had life-changing injuries on perfectly kind animals, so life is too short to risk it on something you knows has the potential to end it and has been deliberately trying to unseat you.

[Scribbler]

I’m picking up on some wierd disconnects.

OP has been in h/J world their whole life but trained their TB all on their own and no one else can ride her.

OP if you trained a horse that no one else can ride there are by definition some holes in your skill set meaning you are doing things so differently from other riders that it doesnt translate. It’s not an accolade. It’s a red flag that you’ve just made stuff up as you’ve gone along, and to me that says you haven’t been in any good coaching program. So I lose confidence that you can problem solve on someone else’s horse.

I actually find it hard to believe the lesson coach would hang onto this giant liability of a dangerous horse with expensive care for ten years. No one can afford that. I also find it hard to believe that a trainer would lease out a horse that they themselves think is too dangerous to ride.

The only place I could imagine this happening is a sketchy unprofessional lowend lesson program.

OP, if you can’t turn out your own mare so that she can be ridden by other people you lack the skills to fix a dangerous horse.

I am worried they let you continue to ride him. I would suggest you get out of that barn, take your TB somewhere with solid coaching to retrain her, and forget about Mr Dangerous.

Life is not an episode of Heartland.

[IPEsq]

I will say that there are worse things that could happen to this horse than being put down.

He is not sound, requires expensive shoes and supplements, and he can’t be trusted with most riders, flatting, and he is dangerous over fences.

OP, unless you want to give this horse a forever retirement home, these kinds of horses often wind up in a bad situation when they are sold or rehomed trying to find them a continued useful life. A lot of casual riders do not want to take on $$$$ shoes for a pleasure horse.

It is very expensive for your trainer to keep this horse if he’s not generating income. He’s not generating income because he’s dangerous to jump and trainer thinks dangerous for low level flat lessons.

Horse is in pain. It is not the worst thing to let him go if that is what his owner thinks is best.

[fivestrideline]

OP, sounds like you need a new trainer.

The description of how you have been jumping this horse to (unsuccessfully) keep him from doing his thing sounds sketchy, scary, and dangerous. Most likely he’s in pain from his feet and now also anticipates getting no release, hit in the mouth and the back, and is clearly all kinds of anxious. On top of that, this trainer has kept a dangerous animal on hand, LEASED HIM OUT, and allowed a client to ride and JUMP him while they openly refuse to get on themselves. Hell no.

No horse at your level should be too ‘difficult’ ‘spirited’ or ‘opinionated’ to only be ridden by you. Anyone competent should be able to get on and hack, and your trainer should be able to get on and produce a 10x better ride than you. What happens if you get hurt and need to keep Dobbin in shape? You sound like a beginner or intermediate rider (and hey, most of us are! There’s so much to learn!) who has been allowed to ‘wing it’ with your horse and this one. And it’s going to get you hurt.

Find a new program, haul your horse out to some good lessons, open up your horizons. There is so much more fun to be had on good horses than trying to ‘fix’ one that is begging to retire!

[Bristol_Bay]

@Renn_aissance

We splat now.

No wisdom to add here, except this is the best, truest sentence I’ve read in a long time.

[Paint_Party]

@Scribbler

Life is not an episode of Heartland.

Can I put this on a bumper sticker?

[Tiedtotheride]

Or maybe that people in our barn don’t care to ride spirited horses because they have saintly hunter types who don’t act up. You should probably see me ride before you make assumptions on my training skill set. I took a horse which couldn’t even let someone put reins over her face and have turned her into a fantastic horse for myself who jumps her little heart out. Mares are different though. Again - I came here for some tips on things we aren’t seeing in X-rays and isn’t uniquely evident besides at a long spot. Does he have some behavioral issues on the ground? Absolutely, but I use all aids to negate this behavior including tacking him on cross ties. My mare ground ties and doesn’t leave my side. And on the ground I’d trust her with a 2 yr old.

In my 20 years of riding, never have I ever resorted to posting on a public forum for help. And I would expect there aren’t many professionals on here giving out free advice because they’re busy working up training plans, and know they’re knowledge is worth too much to just hand out. He arrived to my farm with this behavior and I didn’t start riding him until he had been there for 2-3 years. I took him on knowing he had this tick. I’m looking for other options for him, that’s why I’m here.

I have agreed with all commentors that we should go back to ground work and flat work and try to incorporate some dressage training, take jumping out of the picture for him. You shouldn’t comment on someone’s ability if you haven’t seen them ride.

[Tiedtotheride]

And this is why she has mentioned putting him down - he’s not able to be used in the program and has expensive up keep with the shoes. He’s also on ulcer guard which is expensive (we’ve known he was ulcer prone since acquiring him).

[Tiedtotheride]

This would make sense. And I’ve said that it does feel as though it’s more out of anticipation of pain when you get that balling up feeling. And I do try to pay attention to cues like pinning ears and tail swishing, he tends to be pretty stoic with that sort of stuff but will act out when he doesn’t want to do something. I also try to incorporate positive reinforcement with any groundwork that I do (which isn’t much to be completely honest). And that has for sure had an impact on his behavior with me will grooming, stretching him, really anything in the stall or on the ground.

[Scribbler]

The trainer got him in 2012. So ten years ago. You started riding him 7 or 8 years ago when you were 20. And so he’s been what, lawn darting you constantly for 7 years with no improvement? And the trainer has been standing by and just washing her hands of this? And you’ve been at this crap kiddie barn your whole adult life?

Yes, hunters are typically very calm horses when they compete compared to say barrel racers or jumpers. But they don’t get that way magickly because they are saintly. They get that way because the trainers and coaches have a big bag of tricks, some legit and some not, to get a quiet trip out of them. If you have grown up in the h/j world you would know all about those methods.

In other words coaches in h/j are perfectly capable of taking a hot young horse and molding it into a junior hunter. They aren’t afraid to ride spirited horses. They just have the skills and tricks to make quality horses into safe junior mounts. It’s a very lucrative and in many ways very admirable skill. That you are 27 and come from this world and havrnt seen the work that goes into the back end of training seems odd to me.

OP, I believe there is a bucking horse that you want to ride, and you are without intelligent adult direction here. Honestly though I don’t believe the dates or timelines or your description of yourself.

That doesn’t really matter though because my advice in both cases is the same. Walk away before you get hurt.

Maybe you really are an adult ammie hanging around some crapshow backyard lesson program hoping to sneak away with a nice WB that doesn’t fit the program. Maybe you are a 13 year old getting launched off a rank pony jumping broomstick alone in a field where no one’s mom can see. No judgement, I’ve been in similar enough to both positions myself :).

But it’s pretty clear that you are not going to be the person to fix this horse because you don’t have the skills, the trainer help, or the autonomy. Whoever you are, walk away.

[2bayboys]

@Tiedtotheride let’s review.

Horse is not sound to jump.
Horse is “pretty good” on the flat but can be spooky.
Horse has a history of bolting in hand.
Horse requires expensive therapeutic shoeing and ulcergard maintenance.
Horse can’t be used in lessons (for obvious reasons).
Horse is not yours.

Unless this horse is pooping out $10 bills with your name on them, I fail to see its redeeming value.

You’ve gotten lots of good advice here and I suggest you take it.

You say you’ve been riding twenty years, well I’ve been riding fifty. So I’ll add my piece of advice to the pile and tell you to walk away.

And walk away from this trainer too, who’s been enabling this dangerous shitshow.

[Equkelly]

@Tiedtotheride

You should probably see me ride before you make assumptions on my training skill set.

The following quote YOU made on here tells me all I need to know about your training skill set:

@Tiedtotheride

You definitely have to make it known to him that you are the alpha.

That’s beginnertalk. That’s the attitude we teach to the 7 year old up-downers learning to ride the pony who will drag them to the grass. Once you’ve graduated from that stage of your riding career, you shouldn’t have to keep always being the “winner” or the “alpha”.

More advanced riders and trainers listen to what their horse is telling them. This horse is telling you one of two things… 1) He’s in pain when he jumps. 2) He’s not in pain but he really hates jumping. I think number 1 is much more likely but in either scenario, both are reasons to stop jumping this horse.

[SuzieQNutter]

I agree. You don’t want to be an alpha. You want a partnership. This requires listening to the horse and the horse having an opinion.

[MadTrotter]

Let’s game this out. Let’s assume everything you post is true and accurate.

Let’s say you get this horse sound and sane through many hours of your own unpaid labor. Let’s say you manage to avoid a major TBI or other permanently debilitating injury. Then what? A 20something horse with navicular changes gets put back into a lesson program where he’s gradually worn down? And the owner and the trainer will put him down anyways after 4-5 years because he’s not profitable? Or at that point they decide to give him to you and now you have an expensive lawn ornament?

If they won’t give you this horse to retire at pasture right this minute, there is nothing you can do for him will really be for his benefit, not in the medium/long term.

Be thankful this isn’t your horse, honestly and seriously. You won’t have to make the cold calculation of carrying an expensive horse or euthanizing him.

I’ve thought about euthanizing a horse who was a dangerous asshole on the ground and she is 100% sound. And beautiful. And talented. And young. But life is too short to deal with a horse that “only” you can deal with. Luckily I had the resources to send her to a serious trainer who told me straight up if she’s worth the effort. If she ever backslides and doesn’t improve I wouldn’t hesitate to euthanize her. My sister was in the hospital with crushed ribs and a perforated lung from this horse bolting out a stall door.

If you have been seduced by the fancy warmblood title, save up and buy a nice yearling to bring along. For less than the cost of maintenance to keep this horse sound, you could save and buy something really nice.