If you love this horse so much why are you looking for ways to convince him do something that hurts him, and will only get worse?
The horse has a diagnosis that readily explains his behaviour, and no tack change, exercise or training trick is going to change that.
You might be able to argue that properly done dressage work could be good physiotherapy for him. Continuing to jump this horse is dangerous and selfish.
I know nothing about jumping, but I have lots of experiences with ulcers. If he is/has been treated I can almost bet he’s not getting a dose large enough for his size (happened to me) and the Ulcerguard isn’t attending to all ulcer issues he might be presenting.
Maybe think about scoping, treating with vet’s recommendations, which may include misoprostol, and then using a daily supplement like Assure Guard Gold, and see what happens. Honestly, to me it sounds like a horse whose gut isn’t great and I can imagine the action required in jumping creates quite the acid churn that is going to cause a ton of pain.
OP, I know that the responses here are not at all what you were hoping to receive. It’s extremely rare, however, for everyone on this board to agree on something like this. Please take the advice that’s been given for your own safety.
Even if some magical trick or training technique made this horse safe over crossrails, it would not be ethical to put him in a lesson program. Almost by definition, a lesson horse is a horse who will not be UNSAFE if even a less-than-perfect ride and less-than-consistent rides by multiple people.
You have a horse. If not for your own safety, what will happen to him and his training if you get too banged up to ride properly?
In another thread, posters were discussing the fact that a dog who has attacked multiple people, needs kid gloves and eggshells to behave normally, and is expensive to maintain is not suitable for rehoming. The same is true of this horse. He has told multiple people who he is, and your trainer is one of them and believes him. It is not a virtue to refuse to listen to him and try to convince him otherwise.
I think you should share a video or photos of you riding this horse so we can do a proper assesment, if you really want help.
I fully agree this horse needs to be retired and you need to put your welfare above your stubbornness to fix this horse. He will be perfectly happy in a field, or if your trainer opts to PTS, he won’t be living in pain and putting a human being to sleep forever either.
Since that is not the advice you are seeking, and I’m not sure that what is said on this forum will stop you from trying to jump this horse, here we go:
What does he do without tack? Free jump him and see if he reacts the same on landing. Do this for multiple sessions, because he needs to forget how to jump with a rider on his back.
Along the same line, have you tried him on bute (which worries me with the ulcers - buteless maybe?) He needs to receive enough doses to forget about pain. If he starts jumping more normal, he is in pain. If he continues with his behavior, he is a pain. Either way, he needs to stop jumping, but if you’ll sleep better at night knowing if it’s a training vs pain issue, there you go. I’m not sure this is the best path to follow, I’m throwing out it there as an option you need to discuss with vet and trainer (AKA, the owner of this horse who has no faith and seems to have exhausted all her options).
I recommend throwing him out in a field now. As others have said, what you are laying out sounds crazy to someone not involved in the situation. Trainer refuses to ride horse, refuses to use in lesson program, LEASES HORSE OUT, and allows you to ride it? Nope, nope, nope. I always think about the path of less regret - in the off chance horse gets better, great, he’s good for a few years until navicular makes him full stop or something else, either way he’s getting older and won’t live/work forever. Does he get better without YOU getting seriously (possibly permanently) hurt, and YOU have to live with that pain for the rest of your life, meanwhile horse has no idea what all you went through for him, probably doesn’t care, and while you’re still living with all the damage horsey caused, he’s running around pain free in greener pastures sooner or later? NOPE, horse does not care, I suggest picking the path where you both are not living in pain. Sad now, fully functioning later.
What is there to GAIN by riding/jumping this horse? Will it improve his life? Will it improve yours? What are the risks to riding/juming this horse? What are the risks to him? What are the risks to you? Do the benefits really outweigh the risks?
I am hung up on the description of him “stabbing the ground”.
I am handicapped with MS and often get put up on horses who have problems, usually physical. They also have gaping holes in their training–at over 20 years old.
One mare I ride, an Arab-Welsh pony in her late 20s, has arthritis somewhere in her front legs. Her difficulties mostly show when we go down-slope, where she “stabs” the ground. I can feel it, the lady who owns her can see it, and it comes from arthritis pain. Since I ride this mare 100% at the walk now, most of my ride is finding the flattest path in a non-graded grass ring. When we have to go down-slope I do the collecting leg aids, which helps a little bit for a few seconds. This mare is very reluctant to go down-slope but since this is not an ideal riding ring I try to make it as painless as possible.
She is on various feed/supplement stuff, wears BOT exercise boots in front, has a BOT shimmable saddle pad, and a BOT exercise sheet. These help but the pain is always beneath the surface waiting for one wrong move to manifest. I would never jump this mare now even though she used to be a leased out eventing horse and knows how to jump.
“Stabbing” the ground is a sign of pain, or of a body that cannot work properly for whatever reason.
I ride another horse who is navicular. He is properly shod and quite good at walk, trot, canter (moves forward willingly and does not limp or bob his head) but my riding teacher refuses to let anyone jump him, which sort of limits his utility at a hunter barn. My riding teacher occasionally sends him over a cross-rails jump (6 inches high?), and usually what she sees is enough to make her wait for several months before they try this again, because this horse “TELLS HER” that it hurts too much. This horse is so amiable that he will try to do stuff and has never done anything dangerous for his rider, but that is what led him to end up with full blown navicular disease and a horrible shoeing bill.
Even when I used to jump horses I would have given the horse you ride a hard pass. There are many horses out there that are in better shape, have better legs, and are not dedicated to telling their riders that they hurt too much to land from a jump (over a thousand pounds landing on ONE LEG for a split second, it can hurt.)
It is simply not worth it if you end up crippled for life, unable to ride, walk, drive or work.
But, he is not your horse to make that decision.
I’m curious why your trainer even allows you to ride the horse that has already injured you seriously more than once, while she won’t get on the horse & cannot use him in her business.
I imagine you haven’t made use of trainer’s liability insurance to pay any of your medical bills.
Maybe that’s the reason you’re “privileged” to be the Crashtest Dummy trying to fit this square peg into the program.
If horse is usable on the flat, why could he not be one of the lesson horses?
Surely there are some clients with no desire to jump. Their lesson money spends the same.
As you seem determined to ride this horse, all the advice I can offer is Be Safe & Good Luck.
I just want to add to the OP: I think you’ve been trying very gamely to respond to critical posts in the forum. I’m sure you didn’t expect quite this level of unanimous criticism, and the fact that you haven’t logged off in a huff after deleting your posts shows your level of determination.
But, the criticisms aren’t wrong. And one thing I’ll say is that you should remember that brain injuries (even minor concussions) build on each other. So even if you manage never to have a truly catastrophic injury on this horse (or any horse), the net effect of multiple concussions can be very, very debilitating by the time you hit middle-age or late middle-age.
At the very least, you should be wearing a MIPS helmet and a hard-shell protective vest when you ride this beast.
Good luck.
Hoo boy, I’ve been in your shoes and I walked away, but only after breaking my collarbone! Oddly enough, the original break was a pure accident when horse tripped, but then I reinjured it when same horse did his patented bolt one stride in front of jump and then launch rider on landing move.
I rode as a junior, went to school, and came back to riding after graduate school. The trainer I was with for several years had an ex-show horse, ex because he’d been in a terrible crash in the 2nd year greens with a pro and it was thought he had a career-ending injury. After two years in a field he was evaluated as sound in body, but pretty traumatized in brain. I didn’t have my own horse at that point so I took him on. He was 95% good but the other 5% was terrible, and seemed very random. It certainly could have been tied to pain, although his non-riding owner sunk lots of money into diagnostic and preventative care during the two years I rode him, but a lot of it was anxiety and explosive reactions to being scared, which then scared him more.
He only got me off a couple of times but as noted above they were serious and after the last episode we all decided he should just be retired. He went to his owner’s lovely farm and lived out his days there. We kept on with him because he was SOOOO fancy, and when he was good he was a blast to ride. But we finally realized his issues were not solvable, and the kindest solution was to stop trying. A horse with that level of anxiety was never going to be safe and again, at some point the potential cost to both of us was just too high.
There is nothing wrong with giving up- horses can injure or kill us all too easily. If a horse is in pain, whether or not you can find it, he depends on those who care about him to stop and either retire him or give him a kind, quick death so he doesn’t have to struggle anymore.
Wow, best of luck letting this horse go, OP. I know it’s hard, but since you don’t own the horse, and he’s expensive to maintain, I don’t see a real good future for him.
One thing is bothering me…the thrush thing. Thrush is an indication of a poor environment. Thrush is difficult to manage in Florida, but certainly not impossible. Thrush can lead to lameness, all by itself, but add it onto other hoof issues and you get a big serving of hoof disease with special sh*t sauce.
Florida horses needs two major ingredients to keep healthy:
Sometimes, especially in situations where many horses are being managed and costs are high, people try to get a couple of extra weeks of wear on the shoes. Nope. Can’t do that down here. Another thing that I’ve found that helps is a paddock attached to the stall with rock footing, or a separate turnout area with rock as footing. It will toughen their feet and helps keep them up out of the mud. Yes, that means investing in rock because rocks don’t exist in Florida. If your trainer is cutting corners on the hoof care, thrush will show itself. It is, absolutely, the tattletale ailment for horses. If a horse is always battling with thrush, that means care is lacking somewhere. It also means, because of our sandy soil, that he’s probably also suffering from white line disease. It seems like if you have to treat a horse for thrush for longer than a week down here, he’ll start to get some separation along the hoof wall. This isn’t your fault, but it will make a horse very sore. I have seen plenty of sore footed horses down here from thrush and white line disease alone. We’ve taken in a few rescues and even a little neglect meant their hooves were a mess.
This statement makes it sound like he lives in a stall and gets a few hours of turnout in a probably small area each day? That and the note you made that he gallops bucking in from turnout makes me think the amount and type of turnout he gets isn’t enough for him. (Not for you, for owner, for what is available or what we can afford. For the horse)
I’ve seen more horse problems over the years arising from lack of space and time to run… most people will never know what their horse could be like living in a herd on a hilly pasture, but they’re a different animal…
One of the wisest things I have ever heard from a vet is “you don’t ride the x-rays”.
Just because this horse’s x-rays don’t appear “that bad” doesn’t mean that his pain isn’t “that bad”. There are plenty of horses with horrible x-rays that are sounder than they should be, and there are plenty of horses with “not bad” x-rays that are lamer than they should be.
A true horseman would stop jumping this horse because he is clearly telling you that he hurts and he doesn’t want to do it. A true horseman puts their ego aside for the best of the horse.
Your posts demonstrate a lot of ego and do not show any true regard for the horse’s mental and physical well being. The entire tone of your post is “how can I make this horse do what I want it to” and it should really be “is there a job I can find this horse to do that doesn’t hurt him and doesn’t cause him to be in a constant state of fight or flight”.
If you want a true partnership with the horse, then you must listen to their NO and respect their boundaries, just like any other relationship.
I was once younger, braver and more like you. I have the battle wounds to my body to prove it now. Now at not quite 40, my cervical spine is trashed and I am in constant nerve pain from far too many “lawn dart” episodes on horses like this one. I cannot undo what is done, but if there is anything I can impart on you now, it is to please also have more regard for your own safety, as well, so that you can continue to enjoy riding for your lifetime.
OP, I’ll also add my advice as a fellow late 20 something millennial. I grew up riding the greenies and the problem horses. I can sit a buck or a spook better than most. I don’t really get nervous riding and I’ve never had a made up horse because my parents did not go out and buy me one so I had to ride whatever I could.
But just because I can ride the explosive bucker, doesn’t mean I will. I’m a confident enough rider that I have nothing to prove. It’s not a flex for me to ride those horses anymore. I actually take much more pride in the fact that my 5YO warmblood mare is a quiet saint that anybody could ride. Sixteen year old me would’ve thought that was super lame but thankfully I don’t think that way anymore.
If I get on a horse and they throw a nasty bucking fit, and I sit it and stay on, I don’t feel proud of myself. I don’t feel like an alpha. That means I missed signs and I wasn’t listening to what my horse was telling me until they had to scream it. My goal is never to put my horse in that position where they feel like they need to explode. If they explode, I lost, even if I stay on (which I probably will).
Stop putting the horse in the position that they need to explode. If you’re as good of a rider as you say, you don’t need to prove anything.
Sometimes the best horsemanship is listening when they tell you they don’t want to do something.
If you want to give riding him a shot and he’s good on the flat as you say he is, do dressage. His age his schmage, if you can ask him to jump around you can ask him to do dressage. You have no idea what you’re missing in terms of looseness, relaxation, and access to every inch of your horse.
I know the feeling of not wanting to give up on a horse all too well, but take it from someone who felt the same way and now regrets not having given up sooner; sometimes it’s best to walk away. Honestly, if I would have walked away, I would be be a much better rider right now and not have near the anxiety and confidence issues I have. It’s one of my biggest regrets. I wasted so much money on training, destroyed my confidence, and ended up injured before retiring my horse, who I don’t think was ever happy under saddle despite multiple vets finding nothing wrong with him. I also didn’t want to waste his potential or talent, but realized I was miserable, felt unsafe, was spending money I needed for more important things, and that my horse was unhappy and not progressing. He got to spend his last years in my family’s pasture just being a horse before he passed earlier this year, and I’m glad I was able to give him that in the end.
Everyone here is correct when they say horses have no concept of potential and don’t feel unhappy if they’re not jumping. If he’s good on the flat as you say, dressage would probably be a good option for him. However, it is completely not worth it to be seriously injured again or possibly even killed trying to jump this horse who is telling you he doesn’t want to jump. There is a lot of good advice here, though it may not be what you were hoping for.
As someone who has ridden this type of horse, had them explode a stride before the jump and dolphin on the backside, and lawn darted myself into the ground and gotten injured: it is not worth it.
There are some horses who have issues that we can work through. I love a “problem horse.” I love the sense of responsibility and the confidence that results from doing something right. I love the progress and the process. But a horse that wants to launch you on the backside? Absolutely not.
I totally understand the “why” behind your determination. It is rewarding to get things right especially on a nice horse. But as everyone else has said here, there are deeper issues.
This horse does NOT want to jump.
YOU want to jump.
You are not the hero for persisting.
At best you are insensitive to the horse’s message, at worst you are bullying him to do something that he is clearly uncomfortable doing.
Please take your considerable energy and put it towards making your mare a horse that ANYONE can ride. And learn about dressage. If, as you say, you and your trainers don’t really “do dressage”, then change that. It’s very hard and very worth your time. This horse is not.
Also, being put to sleep is the safest way to keep this horse and others out of a dangerous situation. By your admission, he’s not very safe for others to handle even on the ground.
I’ve been there with the horse that told me he doesn’t want to jump. I bought him to be my next eventer when he was two years off the track and seemed like a genial guy who would enjoy this type of career. He started out really well, seemed to take to jumping but always was a little anxious and never truly relaxed. He started refusing and not wanting to go forward, rearing, etc. I had hm examined with x-rays from stem to stern and couldn’t find anything wrong with him, saddle was checked for fit, believe me, I tried everything. I gave him one last chance at a small local derby and he was so awful; I couldn’t get him near any of the little baby jumps. That was that, no more jumping. He’s now my trail horse and living his best life. Still gets anxious at times but I love the big galoot and never feel unsafe on him.
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