Horse Purchasing: Trainer and I disagree! What do I do?

[OverandOnward]

@Edre

Two things: I echo people with the use of unfortunately; I would also rephrase “leasing a nice horse” - there are plenty of nice horses out there, and this trainer probably has access to many, but they’re not ones that suit your needs.

Reworded to however you would say it; but I would revise to something like “In order to achieve my goals of attending A shows and leasing a horse that can compete at the A level, I need to enter a show program at another barn.”

(“Nice” is subjective, so remove it from the equation - state exactly what it is you need that she cannot provide; in this case, an A-level horse.)

Perfect. And well considered.

It is a very good point that when delivering a “no” message, it is critical not to phrase anything in a softer way such that it seems to open a door to negotiation, or disagreement/dispute – from the point of view of the other person.

It can be hard to put ourselves in that person’s head when we are focusing so hard on the point that we want to make. And on our attempts to soften and be polite. But that can be misunderstood by someone who would like to work toward a different outcome.

And that words and phrases that are a subjective assessment of something might lead to a disagreement – even a strong disagreement. Based on implications that we didn’t intend, such as that current trainer does not have a ‘nice’ horse, something she probably doesn’t agree with, and you didn’t intend to say.

[FitzE]

Unfortunately was the thing I would definitely change and many others have covered that brilliantly above.

As others have mentioned, I would change the 4th sentence to something more like:

I have assessed my goals, done my research, and consulted with my parents. In order to achieve my goals of showing regularly at A shows and leasing a horse that can compete at the A level, I need to enter a show program at another barn.

I don’t think it’s too long at all. I think this is the time to be friendly and honour that connection you’ve found there to a barn family, not just a riding programme.

If there is a possibility and a desire to still ride at this barn once in awhile or once a month or something, see if that would be okay. Don’t be afraid to ask.

You did really well with that message and I hope you feel confident to speak up, share your goals, express your gratitude, and leave on a high note!

[thereadinghorse]

I didn’t read through all the posts, but I wonder about how WBs are viewed here. Maybe those types of horses are very expensive in the US or the basic riding skills are much lower, but some posts gave me the impression, that WBs are difficult, hot and not easy to handle and quite expensive as well.

Where I’m from WBs are the absolute standard horse breed. We have way more WBs than any other breed. They are the most recommended breed for anyone, who wants to do a little dressage, jumping or eventing. Maybe this is really different in the US. But the easiest breed to handle, care and ride are WBs in my opinion. Around here nobody would recommend any “western” type of horse for showjumping. Some use their QH or PH for jumping, but that’s like 1 in 1000.

Next to WBs german riding ponys are the next most used breed for such purposes. TBs come way later, due to being a lot hotter than any standard WB. But our breeding clubs tend to use a lot of TB blood mainly for the eventing lines of the WBs, so you always get some amount of TB in any WB you buy. Unless you buy a very “old fashioned” WB where there’s not much of TB in it. After WBs, TBs and german riding ponys the Haflinger is used quite a lot for “low level” showing.

Are WBs that expensive in the US? I read budgets about 40 to 60k? This is insane. Only very high end WBs cost this much over here. Most “amateur” WBs are around 10 - 20k. Even very good ones placed high in shows about 4’2 are found inside this range.

So as somebody who mainly rides WBs (Hanoverians, Holsteins, Trakehners etc.) I can recommend them for the purposes of the OP and I think she should part with the trainer, who recommends very unsuitable breeds.

[dmveventer]

OP I think this message is the right sentiment and would have been fine before you’d started to talk about buying a horse, but doesn’t totally make sense now since your trainer was already starting to shop (or at least plan for shopping) on your behalf. You’ll want to directly address why that plan has changed to a lease when you were previously set on buying. She may have already put some effort into the search, and was probably counting on a commission and/or having another boarder soon. From what you’ve said about your relationship with this trainer I don’t expect she’ll be upset, but the professional thing to do is be direct with her.

“Thank you for everything you’ve done so far in helping with my horse shop. My parents and I have talked about my goals and what makes the most sense for our budget and we’ve decided to lease something in a show program so I can focus on competing for the next few years before college. I’ve gained so much from your program and I really appreciate everything you’ve done for me, I’m going to miss everyone here but this is the right next step for me.”

Your trainer will almost certainly understand, I guarantee you aren’t the first student who has moved on to a higher-level program. It sounds like you two have a good relationship so while she may be a little disappointed she’ll most likely be supportive of your goals. This is a business relationship, and your trainer is a professional. I doubt she’ll say much more beyond “I’m sorry to see you go but I wish you the best of luck with your next steps!” If it helps, remember that you would have left this barn in a few years anyway when you left for college. Clients and trainers come and go for all kinds of reasons, it’s a totally normal part of the business.

Keep the conversation short and sweet, don’t feel like you have to justify your decisions to her if she pushes back at all, and avoid saying anything that implies her program isn’t good enough or her horses aren’t nice enough. Her program no longer fits your goals, that’s the end of the story.

[dmveventer]

@thereadinghorse

Are WBs that expensive in the US? I read budgets about 40 to 60k? This is insane.

There are several factors that play into this dynamic which have been addressed extensively in other threads, but to give a few non-comprehensive points:

1. US breeding programs aren’t as robust as overseas so many of our warmbloods are imported, increasing their price
2. The hunters are a major discipline here and require a specific type of horse, which can get very expensive if you want to be competitive
3. The overall cost of horse-keeping is generally much higher so sales prices are higher to partially account for how much trainers put into the horse while in their care

[MadTrotter]

I echo what @dmveventer said and also:

…overwhelmingly, Western-oriented sport is much bigger than English-oriented sport, especially in the wide open places in the US where horsekeeping is not limited to the very wealthy. As such, nationally our “default” horse is the Quarter Horse.

There’s technically nothing stopping someone from building a foundation warmblood herd out in, say, Iowa and offering cheaper horses for English sports. It wont happen because those horses still go for $$$ so why would anyone dilute their own market? Anything remotely warmblood is still going for low 5s. Esp if it’s got a brand on it, it will sell…old, lame, unsafe, whatever.

Our other popular horse sport is racing, although that is obviously a spectator sport, but it means the other available breed is the thoroughbred.

I personally believe our thoroughbreds suffer a lot of bias and are very underutilized. This is beginning to change, but they are an exception at the top levels of “polished” pursuits, where the form is as, important as the effort, even if they are more widely seen in sports like eventing where raw athleticism is much more important.

Think the debate in figure skating, where “artistry” is a very subjective and amorphous quality, but vital to winning.

“Hunters” has always been oriented towards a pursuit by and for the wealthy, even though all but the most downhill-bred QH can athletically handle popping over a 2’6” course. Which is what 90%+ of what anyone is actually doing.

Any suitably built horse, thoroughbred, appendix, warmblood or otherwise, that can jump the required height could hypothetically do what the OP seeks to do but the degree of polish that is the barrier to entry in this universe is way above the baseline ability to safely get over the jumps.

And that is because of the coastal money that props up English sports, and the aesthetic culture that sprung up around the money, as well as our unique history as a “cowboy nation” in the rest of the States.

[Scribbler]

@thereadinghorse

I didn’t read through all the posts, but I wonder about how WBs are viewed here. Maybe those types of horses are very expensive in the US or the basic riding skills are much lower, but some posts gave me the impression, that WBs are difficult, hot and not easy to handle and quite expensive as well.

Where I’m from WBs are the absolute standard horse breed. We have way more WBs than any other breed. They are the most recommended breed for anyone, who wants to do a little dressage, jumping or eventing. Maybe this is really different in the US. But the easiest breed to handle, care and ride are WBs in my opinion. Around here nobody would recommend any “western” type of horse for showjumping. Some use their QH or PH for jumping, but that’s like 1 in 1000.

Next to WBs german riding ponys are the next most used breed for such purposes. TBs come way later, due to being a lot hotter than any standard WB. But our breeding clubs tend to use a lot of TB blood mainly for the eventing lines of the WBs, so you always get some amount of TB in any WB you buy. Unless you buy a very “old fashioned” WB where there’s not much of TB in it. After WBs, TBs and german riding ponys the Haflinger is used quite a lot for “low level” showing.

Are WBs that expensive in the US? I read budgets about 40 to 60k? This is insane. Only very high end WBs cost this much over here. Most “amateur” WBs are around 10 - 20k. Even very good ones placed high in shows about 4’2 are found inside this range.

So as somebody who mainly rides WBs (Hanoverians, Holsteins, Trakehners etc.) I can recommend them for the purposes of the OP and I think she should part with the trainer, who recommends very unsuitable breeds.

Warmbloods in NA command a price premium because they are fairly scarce and tend to be purpose bred. Even the mediocre ones are more expensive than other breeds

The OTTB are very affordable because they get rehomed when they retire from the track.

QH are by far the largest breed numerically and they have lots of different types. The QH/TB cross can be a very versatile lower level sport horse.

So can the draft/TB cross which was the recipe for the “heavy hunter” type in Britain before WB were introduced. And is still an affordable cross these days in Canada

A WB is going to cost significantly more than any OTTB or TB/QH or WB/draft cross of equal ability. In North America the WB is like a designer label, elevating the percieved value of the animal.

It’s about scarcity and marketing.

Some experienced horse people in North America have done well importing WB from Europe because even with the shipping and quarantine costs, and the bother and risk of shopping overseas, the total cost is significantly lower and the job of finding a horse much easier (if you have the right connections and agents).

So that right there tells you about the cost differential.

My feeling is that a WB for a middling income junior would be a “step up horse” not a first horse. You’d start out with a stock breed (we have some adorable appaloosa ponies in our barn currently) and then maybe get a well broke TB that had long forgotten about the OT part of life :). Most juniors never jump above 2 foot 9, even when competing.

The jump up to 3 foot and above requires a full retooling, usually a new program, and always a new horse. I know one junior that did this going into being a young adult, and her parents had significant income. She competed a bit locally, not sure how much or how long. But yes, that required a mid 5 figure WB almost ten years ago now? And another trainer barn world life.

[celine.eq2023]

Yeah! In Europe, especially where I used to live, warmbloods were only 10-20k for a quality horse. I’ve seen ads here in the US that are like “Jumps 2’3, hasn’t shown yet: priced at 100k”
It’s crazy!!

[Scribbler]

@celine.eq2023

Yeah! In Europe, especially where I used to live, warmbloods were only 10-20k for a quality horse. I’ve seen ads here in the US that are like “Jumps 2’3, hasn’t shown yet: priced at 100k”
It’s crazy!!

British people say similar things about the fad for “Gypsy Vanners” in North America. Back in Britain they are grade utility cobs. In North America they are expensive magical horses. I wonder if any North American breed gains value traveling the other direction?

[fivestrideline]

Quarter Horses, I’m told. Since there’s not a huge breeder base over there, good Reiners and the like are $$$$ (well, they are here in the states too, but there’s a premium across the pond).

To be fair, some western sports have horses that go for INSANE prices too. It’s not just WBs, but this board skews heavily to English disciplines.

[MadTrotter]

Yes exactly, fancy shiny romantic Western horses in exotic colors are prized overseas too. Asia as well. Big $$$$.

I think there’s just a greater diversity of access in Western sports. You can go to the same event series in barrel racing and your scores will qualify for different levels, for example.

[thereadinghorse]

Thanks for all your input. Liked reading it! So intresting.

Didn’t think QH would be the largest breed. But it makes sense somehow. We don’t have QH/TB or draft/TB crosses over here (Germany). That’s just non existant. And no saddlebreds or something like this. Apart from rare occurances. QH/PH are quite expensive. At least the same “level” of QH would be more expensive than a WB.

TBs in general are quite uncommon. We have like 2 in a barn of 120 horses. One never was on the track and one is a OTTB. OTTBs are sold to good skilled riders, because often times they are sold right from the track, so no reschooling done. That’s why many keep away from buying a OTTB. In addition they are mostly used for eventing purposes. People find there gaits not spectacular enough for dressage. Even for showjumping most profi riders don’t want them, cause they “have a bad front leg”. Of course this is lots of stigma. But numbers are way smaller in DE. (2.000 broodmares in DE, 65.000 in US), so you don’t see them as much.

We have load of ponys. Riding ponys, Haflingers, Icelandics, Fjords, Welsh (mostly B), Freibergers, Connemaras, Irish Cobs. The latter are mostly used for hacking and not so much for shows. If you wanna show, you buy a WB or riding pony. Otherwise you will not have a real chance to achieve anyhting. In contrast to the UK or other countries, german judges are quite narrow minded. Even my 15h/15.2h hannoverian mare isn’t seen as a sufficient dressage horse. This starts as early as in the second of 5 levels you can compete in. Not enough movement, gaits to flat, no enough expression. She’s more of a showjumper line, so this makes somehow sense. But even with dressage bred horses you may end in level 3, cause the judges want to see horses like the big riders have (Totilas, Weihegold and other very fancy horses!). Of course the occasional WB from some amateur won’t be able to step into such big steps. So it’s totally different over here.

I don’t show dressage. First reason is, that my mare is to flat, to downhill. Second reason is me not being able to do a proper sitting trot So I only showed in Dressage once and immediately reggreted doing so. Hence we stick so sj and eventing (only the cross country part). Apart from that we are able to do dressage figures, like flying changes, shoulder in, traverse, learning half-pass atm and so on.

Sorry in advance for using this topic. Just wanted to reply to all the nice comments answering my questions.

[OverandOnward]

@thereadinghorse

Didn’t think QH would be the largest breed.

The numbers are due to the history of the west, where western riding is the vast majority of riders in the U.S., and their preference for quarter and ranch-type horses.

West of the eastern seaboard states, if someone ‘rides horses’, people assume they ride western, unless they say otherwise.

In a great many places west of the eastern seaboard, ‘riding English’ is considered unusual – and odd. Weird. Different. Something is strange about you, if you ride ‘English’. I live in one of those places.

[fivestrideline]

Haha it is the American Quarter Horse after all. And the (American) Thoroughbred - in which plenty of QHs are mostly TB anyway. And a ton of WBs are half TB or more.

As someone else said, far more people ride western over here. By a HUGE margin. Warmbloods are more scarce and the costs to show English are astounding - that’s why a lot of people shop in Europe.

Anyways, OP, good luck and have fun!!

[IPEsq]

A horse that can execute the questions asked in the 3’6” equitation also exceeds the quality and is a more particular type than your average move up to the children’s jumper horse. These horses are not super green if they are ready to go in the medals, and they can be quite pricey (relatively) even buying direct in Europe unless you happen upon one where the owner/agent somehow doesn’t recognize what they have. But there are a lot of people who know what the American hunter and equitation markets are all about and the prices do reflect that, plus adding on 10-15k in import costs. I’ve seen some pretty good equitation prospects between EUR 50-100k. And sometimes the owners/agents don’t even want to sell them directly but will partner with a trainer in the US to get them going in the equitation where the price will soon skyrocket if they show good potential to become a finals horse.

[findeight]

@thereadinghorse

didn’t read through all the posts,

See, it is wise to read at least most of the thread. Know its a bit long but some of what you are asking has already been answered. Remember this is a 16 year old intermediate rider and advice has been geared towards safe and experienced in showing over fences horse, not breed specific other then OP prefers a WB over TB or Stock breed.

There are many other threads with discussions centered on specific breeds for the specific needs of those posters.

[Scribbler]

@findeight

@thereadinghorse

didn’t read through all the posts,

See, it is wise to read at least most of the thread. Know its a bit long but some of what you are asking has already been answered. Remember this is a 16 year old intermediate rider and advice has been geared towards safe and experienced in showing over fences horse, not breed specific other then OP prefers a WB over TB or Stock breed.

There are many other threads with discussions centered on specific breeds for the specific needs of those posters.

But this was an educational detour. I had no idea everyone rode lower dollar WB in Germany because although it makes total sense, it’s not the case at all in Canada, the US or Britain. I had no idea OTTB were so scarce in Germany. And TheReadingHorse had no idea North America is overwhelmingly QH, has many TB crosses, and a WB is expensive and relatively rare.

It’s fine to have this kind of detour. And indeed the OP was Swiss living in the US and was running up against exactly this cultural difference (a WB makes sense for my competition goals but local trainer thinks a QH is the sensible first horse for a teen).

[thereadinghorse]

I’ll promise it’s the last time, I’ll post on here, so I keep it short. I would appreciate a hint as to where we could discuss all these cultural differences further, cause I like reading all those posts very much. So maybe somebody could help me out on this.

Thought TBs were originally from UK. Thats why we call them “english thoroughbred” (german term translated). I know there’s different lines of throughbreds, Amercian, French, Irish, German and many other countries. But in general the race horse industry is getting smaller and smaller in germany as a whole. Hence we don’t have that much TBs at all. But germany is also significantly smaller than the US. Germany fits into Texas. You need about 10 to 11 hours from bottom to top. So we are kinda small compared to the US. So numbers are of course much smaller.

As to TB percentages in WBs: All of them have some TB in them. But unless your looking for an eventer, most of the WBs have around 20 - 30% TB blood. They calculate about 6 or 7 generations back. So even my mare has around 28% TB, although the first TBs come in 7th generation, dating back to 1950 or earlier.
(My mare, if somebody is interested: https://www.horsetelex.de/horses/pedigree/1749421/contendra-i)

So yeah, there are big cultural differences, so I can relate to the OP, which was confused on why somebody would look for a stock horse for somebody, that is aiming for a jumping “career”, even if it’s as low as 3’3 or 3’6. (Which compares to Level E (first) and Level A (second) in the german competition system, which isn’t that far away from how Swiss is doing theirs).

[Alterration]

@thereadinghorse

So yeah, there are big cultural differences, so I can relate to the OP, which was confused on why somebody would look for a stock horse for somebody, that is aiming for a jumping “career”, even if it’s as low as 3’3 or 3’6. (Which compares to Level E (first) and Level A (second) in the german competition system, which isn’t that far away from how Swiss is doing theirs).

I’ve read the whole thread and I don’t think the cowpony suggestion was…quite what everyone is taking it to be.

If trainer were someone who specialized in AQHA performance, they would have suggested a very expensive HUS or Over Fences prospect. These horses aren’t cheap, and they certainly aren’t marketed as cowponies. They’d never say “cowpony” in this context.

A local-yokel trainer or small hunter-trainer would welcome a warmblood into their barn as a chance to elevate their own barn. They’d never make this statement. I’ve known enough of them to know that they’d be totally psyched to have a branded warmblood in their barn.

I do know the kind of trainer that would say this though. Telling a teen they need a cowpony says to me that said trainer doesn’t think that teen is ready to move up. I can absolutely hear a trainer saying that about or to a teen who thinks they are ready for the A-shows or that their family has the budget to show at that level when trainer thinks they aren’t and they don’t.

Whether that’s true or not is irrelevant. But there are some indicators.

A warmblood at $50k in the US isn’t going to be the same easy ride as a “cowpony”. At $100-500k, sure - I can buy the horse that will sit for weeks and be the same ride and be competitive at the As. 20 years ago, some folks I know bought one for $10k (adjusting for equine inflation, that is a $50k horse right now) and that horse was absolutely the most complicated creature on earth and the teen never ended up showing it. It ended up being given away.

By the way, I’ve known some NICE AQHA h/j individuals who have done fairly well for their amateur owners over 3’6" - but they still can’t be had cheaply and no one would call them a cowpony unless they were being tongue-in-cheek.

So it’s not necessarily that anyone thinks warmbloods are hot. But the cheaper ones here (which IS a $25-50k warmblood) are not going to come without some quirks. I’ve always found them somewhat hard to package, and while they can be phlegmatic, when they react, they react in a big way.

Either way - the OP wants to meet her goals, and it sounds like she’s found a new trainer and a lease horse, which is very wise at this stage.

[thereadinghorse]

Cultural differences - Germany/Europe vs. US/Northern Amercia

After reading a lot of topics, I realized there might be more cultural differences between my home country Germany and the US/NA. It’s really interesting to me, but I somehow misused another topic and I certainly would do this again, this is why I thought of starting this thread, were all cultural differences can be discussed without interupting other threads. I added Europe as a whole, cause many countries are quite similar to Germany and so the can be included in the discussion. I copy/paste …

I made a special thread and would love to see some of the people, that allready answered some of my questions over there!