horse reared over backward "now what?"

[cssutton]

I suspect this post is on to something.

The horse has been put on supplements.

He does not like being girthed up, which by itself is not uncommon.

But putting the two together along with his change in behavior…

I suspect that maybe in addition to supplements, his feed has been changed in other ways.

I would take him off all supplements, feed mostly hay, grass and very little grain and have him checked for ulcers or other digestive problems.

But I would get him back to a basic subsistence feed program under the assumption that his feed program is causing some unknown problem.

I would not expect that by itself to cure the horse but it would go with remedial training.

Question: I forgot to ask if the horse shows any tendency towards being a barn rat. Some horses don’t show that until they have been at a barn for a while, but it takes very very little to make a barn rat rear if asked to go away from the barn and that would especially be true if another horse turned back toward the barn while he is faced away.

Just another question in the search for clues.

CSSJR

[gold2012]

hmm

Okay SRF1,

Here is a few points to ponder.

You said he has bucked twice in past year. The day before he bucked owner off. I would check first with your vet to find out if there is something in the neck or back, or have a chiropractor out…I have to be honest, am not a big believer in CP’s. But…

IF you can’t find anything wrong with him, I don’t know what to tell you…Most of the time they won’t ever do it again. But what if he does. Hope you find something in the back.

We had a horse that did this. He was probably the most gorgeous TB I have ever seen, with movements of 9 and 10. I had never met a horse with more look, movement and jump. 4 foot, nothing, a breeze…Extended trot, he could put the warmbloods to shame…but he was almost totally ruined as a baby by a trainer, and we got him for basically nothing.

We worked with him for 3 months, he tried antics, and extremes…but eventually, he started going amazing, and we actually did get to show him once…

The next week, he flipped. She didn’t ride for a few weeks, thinking maybe he was sore…he flipped again…We couldn’t find anything wrong…On one particular day, he flipped 4 times…Finally, he went several months without flipping…He never did it from exercise, it was always from a walk, or standing still…My daughter went on a trail ride, into the woods with several of our students, they were standing in a clearing just talking, and moved off to go on down the trail when he did it again. This time, the other times she jumped, he got her too. He kicked the living tar out of her face/head and shoulders, fortunately all she ended up with was a mild concussion.

I put him down a few weeks later. Because no horse is ever worth that. She has trained rearer’s and flipper on several occasions, and he was the only one she couldn’t get to quit. The necropsy showed some back issues that the xrays couldn’t figure out.

The problem with rear’s is this…some figure out it is not fun to land upside down…others figure out how to get rid of the rider. the fact that this horse dumped someone two days in a row screams to me of something physical…It also says get a pro for your next ride, and PLEASE be honest with that Pro…I shouldn’t have to say that but you wouldn’t believe how many people brought us horses and never told us that rearing was THE issue.

let me know how it goes.

[poopoo]

Honestly, I would have the vet do a once-over on his back, especially around the withers. Why not rule out some “back” thing? Anything could have happened that you are not aware of - he fell in turnout, he got cast in his stall, etc…

[gold2012]

Just to add, in case not clear, GET A VET…for sure, and then find a PRO. Don’t try to figure this out alone. OR from COTH’ers. While most of us are a caring bunch, It’s hard to do armchair diagnosis.

Also, if you find he continues to do this, repeatedly, or you can’t guarentee he won’t redo…then you might find yourself in a bad position of having to decide about what to do…but I really suspect most of this is a physical cause. Especially since most of it sounds like it happened as soon as you started riding.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

First impressions for me were two…he might have ulcers (of course that doesn’t justify being bad)…but mostly, this is a horse who has just had the winter off and now is going back to work. He my need to be re-started and reminded that he has a job.

This is not something that most adv. beginner riders can do. Some horses…LOVE going back to work…and they get back into it very easily. Some…like be pasture puffs…and while they may be very good horses, just need a good reminder to get back into the swing of a regular program. Get a pro to help you here.

He’s done all this “bad” behaviour on just 5 rides back into work. I would get some on better to re-start him. Take him back to ground zero. Do some ground work with him, re-back him and have some one good put him back into basic work. Get him ridden 5-6 days a week in a regular program (progressing correctly for a horse starting back into work). Some horses need a couple of weeks in the ring and back in a program before they get into the swing of things and get back their work ethic. Then you can trust them more on a hack. Others, you can fit right back up by going on hacks (I have one of each).

Assuming that there is nothing physically wrong, I think this boy sounds like he just needs to be reminded of his job. And probably one or two weeks of a solid program and he will come to terms with the fact that his winter vacation is over and get back to work. I wouldn’t give up on him yet…but agree with the others, this isn’t going to be solved on the internet…but a good trainer (and vet) can give you the best help.

[Jazzy_Lady]

I agree with bornfree - some horses just don’t take well to being re-started in work. They like their time off and don’t have the brain for it and need to be reminded.

And some horses are claustrophobic. How close was this horse in front of you?

I was getting on a young one once that was claustrophobic. There was a horse standing in front of her and when I put my leg over the saddle she flipped clear over. Stood on her hind legs for a while which actually allowed me to slide off her bum and step to the side and then watch her as she came right over. She panicked when she didn’t think she had anywhere to go.

Sometimes flipping once will fix a horse from rearing, sometimes not. But put him in a regular program and get his mind back on work and see how that works for you.

[IrishWillow]

Ok… not to look like the nutcase here… but… Rearing over happens. Obviously, not the greatest outcome, but it DOES happen. Doesnt mean the horse is a loon, unrideable, etc. Especially since this was the first time it happened with this horse, I’d be inclined to say it was an accident - probably as much on the horses part as anything. In my experience most horses do not intentionally flip over when they do… they have a panic (or attitude) attack, start rearing, and either lose their balance or get pulled over by a rider that has lost her balance. Rearing is definitely something you want to nip in the bud before it becomes the horses “go to” defense - once that happens it is VERY hard to correct bc rearing is, in fact, extremely effective from the horse’s point of view. Having the pull the horse down and to the side move well practiced is key - I’d recommend watching “Halfpassgal” on youtube for an excellent demonstration.

[danceronice]

I agree with “get a vet, get an equine dentist, get a chiro if necessary, stop the supplements and find a pro trainer or cowboy with experience.” It SOUNDS, between bucking and rearing, like there is pain of some sort.

But those jumping down the throat of the (ONE) poster who suggested putting down, while I think it would be hasty in this case for a habitual flipper I think it’s the only responsible choice. It’s the one vice I don’t see any reason to tolerate if the horse won’t stop doing it. If the medical solutions and the experienced trainer don’t fix it, there really isn’t any other responsible way to address it besides putting the horse out to pasture.

[ntoeventing]

My first thought would be a physical ailment. If it were my horse, I would have his back checked. Maybe he needs a little adjustment. I would also advise having his teeth checked just to rule that out. Saddle fit could also be contributing to the problem. Most horses don’t just behave that way for now reason. Try to rule out physical problems before assuming its a behavioral thing.

I don’t know that I would add a lot of equipment/contraptions (flash noseband mentioned above) to this horse without the supervision of an experienced trainer. Sometimes more equipment causes the horse to become erratic and worsens the problem.

Proceed cautiously!

[Shrunk_N_Da_Wash]

I wouldn’t so much as touch the horse again especially if I was not the owner.

My friend broke her back and is now a para rider after one of her friends horses flipped on her and she WAS wearing a vest. There were several notable trainers that wanted it put down because it was clearly dangerous after but the owner kept it (even though she was scared the dad pushed her to ride). However, there were other issues with it other than this so it is not quite the same situation.

I don’t think it worth riding that kind of horse. I would get it vetted like everyone else has said but if nothing shows than there’s not much you can do but try to re-train him. But then he is 10 so I think the ship has sailed.

As for turning them tightly in a circle: I saw a different horse flip on a coach of mine she was a 4* rider had been short listed for the olympics so she was clearly a decent rider. I was riding a different horse and the one she was one just out of the blue went up and over on her. She luckily was OK but she refused to ride the horse again. It had a past of rearing over we found out. If the rear up and over and do not scare themselves enough to not do it again than there are problems. The owners of this horse realized the danger and sent it away to some cowboys or something. Point of this is they can rear before you can spin them around. She was rather rattled about it because she thought that in that situation she could use that technique.

[lyndieventer]

Owned a “flipper” as a teenager

My first TB mare did this…learned it while training to be a racehorse at the track…she did not like the starting gate and learned that if she flipped over, the rider wasn’t real keen about getting back on and the lesson ended…this really SHOULD have been my first clue to pass her by, but I was young and dumb and she jumped 5’…My teenage brain couldn’t resist!

Let me just say from my own personal experience that a “flipper” and a “rearer” are very different. This was not a case where she just lost her balance while rearing and feel over…she had every intention of flipping over on me from the very beginning of the action. This was not due to any sort of pain…It was calculated…and, no, she didn’t do it all the time…just when I asked her to do something that she didn’t want to do…that varied depending on the day and her mood…She did it one day when my mom was watching me ride and my mom was so frightened that she did not ever come out again. In fact, that was 17 years ago and she just watched me ride the new gelding a couple of weeks ago.

I had several trainers in Atlanta ride her and every single one of them said “um, no thanks!” I was at UGA the last year I owned her and talked to several of the animal behavìorist at UGA…they all said that any “normal” horse will not flip over backwards because it endangers themselves…so when they start endangering themselves, their thoughts were that they are not thinking straight psychologically…

I ended up giving her to UGA to use in their broodmare program as I couldn’t consciously sell her to someone who would ride her. I personally would never ride one like that again :no:…it was really, really scary…you sort of have to jump off to the side when they are going back so they don’t land on you…gives a whole new meaning to emergency dismount!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

yes…a true “flipper” or rearer is bad.

But EVERY horse has the potential to rear and EVERY horse has the potential to flip over. This horse could have been spinning to turn around fast and slipped in the mud (causing him to go up and over). As far as the OP knows, this horse doesn’t have a history of rearing. YES…proceed with caution right now…but I would not say that this horse has a cronic problem just because it has happened once. He’s a horse…if you want to be sure that it will never happen, don’t get on the back of a real live horse…there is always a chance of it (and there ALWAYS is a chance of a rider getting seriously hurt not just from a horse rearing up). …even with low level packers.

Now if he contiues to go up…that is a different story.

[Calvincrowe]

Based only on what the OP has posted:

Horse is on his 5th? ride after a winter off–fat, happy, healthy, vet checked, back happy, etc. He’s on a trail ride on a mucky ground. Horse ahead of him turns suddenly toward him, he pops up to get out of its way (is he a “low man” horse in a herd?) and perhaps, just perhaps, the rider is caught off guard and pulls the horse over backward through his/her actions. Horse is on slippery ground, not terribly fit and unbalanced by a rider who leans back. Over they go.

Does this make this horse a rogue, unfit to be ridden? I don’t think so. It could have been pilot error combined with poor footing and a spooked/startled horse. He needs to be ridden by a more experienced rider, in a contained environment, or perhaps worked in a round pen without a rider or even lunged before going out.

Just saying.

[Lady_Counselor]

[QUOTE=SRF1;4807123]
My boarders horse reared and flipped with me on a trail at the walk after we turned back toward home. No warning, just up and over. Fortunately I had my vest and helmet on. He was a little antsy as we were in some mud but nothing horrible. There was a horse right in front of him turning around also. After he dumped me, he ran by the other horse and galloped all the way home. He was sold to us as a trail packer/low level dressage. We have had him a year, he has bucked 2x before (he bucked the owner off the day before) but never anything this drastic. Is this a deal breaker for ever trusting this horse again? Neither one of us really wants to ride him again as we are afraid for our safety. Then, the next question is what do you do with a horse like this? I am not sure he should ever be sold as he might not be safe and we dont want anyone else to get hurt, but the owner is not sure she wants to keep him now if she cant ride him. He has been looked at by the vet and nothing stands out to warrent this behavior. He is 10 and sound.

Thanks for any input![/QUOTE]

I agree that everything should be looked over carefully. Gear, teeth, health, what was happening when he went up.

You mentioned mud; were you actually in it when it occured? Do you think his hind end might have slipped as he went up and turned a rear into a flip?

I would be very cautious as well. You don’t need an injury.

[FlashGordon]

@Shantor;4807478

haha I think thats a little bit dramatic…

I had another horse in training for a little while who figured she would rear whenever she didnt like something or didnt want to do something. Again, we worked through it and shes doing much better now. On her back if i ever felt her attempt to rear she got whacked and pushed forward. A Forward horse has a much harder time rearing that a horse who is sucking back or stopped. When she managed to get one out once in a blue moon I held onto some mane, leaned forward and held on, then kick kick kick and forward we went.

Not dramatic at all, if you’ve been on the underside of one that has flipped.

I was in the same kind of accident 10 years ago. Out on trail on a relatively unfamiliar horse, he was new to the barn. I hacked him in the ring a few times then one afternoon out we went with a group of quiet horses. He started wigging out the further we went from the barn, and before long it was up and over and I will never forget that seeing that bay horse coming over on me. Changed my perspective on horses, riding and life in general! I was lucky to skate by with massive bruising and torn ligaments in my knee and ankle.

That said, a few years ago I did work with a horse that would rear. It was more the type you describe in your second paragraph, the type that would pop up and say F-You, or when he was feeling claustrophobic. I was able to “fix” the issue for the most part but he was never 100% reliable and when panicked or pressured, out came the rearing and so GOODBYE I said…

It is just not worth it. Too many nice horses out there and one that has the propensity to rear, and flip, is just Death Waiting To Happen for both horse and rider.

[FineAlready]

My money is on pain. My horse has a propensity toward rearing when something does not go his way. It has been gradually going away over time. That said, he started really rearing a lot about a month before we discovered that he had a suspensory injury. I mean, straight up rearing. I was afraid he would go over. He did not “seem” lame at the time. In retrospect, I believe he was in pain but was not lame yet. Since rearing was his first instinct for something he did not like, I think he chose rearing as a way to send the message that he was hurt.

We’re pretty far along in our rehab now, and he has not offered to rear in a very long time. He’s not being turned out yet, and sometimes he is very fresh. Still no rearing. In the past, I would have expected him to rear under such circumstances. I suspect that he is not rearing because his leg no longer hurts. Of course, we have also since changed barns and have a new trainer, and all sorts of things…any of those reasons, or simple aging (he’s five now) could be the reason for the rearing going away. I may never know the reason for the rearing. Frankly, I don’t care too much as long as it stays gone and he stays sound.

I guess what I’m saying is what others have said. You need to try to get to the bottom of the problem. You may never find out for sure what is causing it, but you can at least eliminate some of the possibilities.

And you people saying that the horse should be put down are unbelievable. They’re horses. Behavior issues may arise from time to time. Pain issues may arise from time to time. What a cop out to just write an animal off so quickly. And I say this as someone who sports a metal rod and several screws in my femur from a horse flipping on me as a teen. Not sure what caused that one (he was not mine), but I think it was pain. He flipped right when I got on him and before I even sank down into the saddle all the way. I would never have wished for him to be put down because I got hurt!

[Tif_Ann]

What direction were you turning when you reared and flipped? Did you happen to have your left leg on?

Horse doesn’t like to be girthed, bucked while being mounted, and reared while turning - that would indicate pain on the left side to me. Maybe ulcers, maybe a rub out of place, maybe he took a hard kick to the ribs and has a bruise.

That’s where I would start, anyway.

[cssutton]

[QUOTE=Tif_Ann;4808631]
What direction were you turning when you reared and flipped? Did you happen to have your left leg on?

Horse doesn’t like to be girthed, bucked while being mounted, and reared while turning - that would indicate pain on the left side to me. Maybe ulcers, maybe a rub out of place, maybe he took a hard kick to the ribs and has a bruise.

That’s where I would start, anyway.[/QUOTE]

A very good observation.

Be sure to tell whoever takes this project on which way he was turning and about the girth resentment.

If the two are connected, spinning to the left would not be a good direction. A spin to the right would be better.

Of course, best of all would be to find out whether he has any pain on his left side.

CSSJR

[SarEQ]

[QUOTE=Tif_Ann;4808631]
What direction were you turning when you reared and flipped? Did you happen to have your left leg on?

Horse doesn’t like to be girthed, bucked while being mounted, and reared while turning - that would indicate pain on the left side to me. Maybe ulcers, maybe a rub out of place, maybe he took a hard kick to the ribs and has a bruise.

That’s where I would start, anyway.[/QUOTE]

I would look at pain as well. I would also double check his teeth.

I agree with the posters who wonder if the flip was caused by slipping in the mud. It can be hard to tell when everything happens so fast, but if he was already nervous and jittery in the mud and went up and wasn’t focused and balanced… I could see him loosing his balance.

That said, I don’t think I would hop on him. I’d get a pro used to working with hard cases (after he’s been checked by a vet).

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=SRF1;4807722]
I forgot to mention he is up to date on everything including teeth. This horse wants for nothing, his owner is meticulous about his care.

The only thing medically was he had very low levels of Vit E, we put him on a liquid E supp over the winter and his levels are now normal. We tested him for lymes and he was low positive and we treated him and he is now neg. He is definately feeling better since the Vit e levels are back to normal. I am not sure if he is feeling so much better from that now that maybe his true colors are more likely to come out or he is just plain feeling good. Not sure. He definately tests his owner more in general riding and on the ground than someone like myself. He generally is a very sweet horse to have in the barn. He has however gotten much more agressive making faces at dinner time if you go near his stall and towards the other horses in the barn in the past year then when he first arrived.[/QUOTE]

urm---- what are you feeding this horse

thing is not all horses should be on the same meal, each is different as they a re individuals
i reckon this horse has had the winter off been fed up to the nines plus supplements is a time bomb waiting to go off, so he will be very sensitive when ridden and very alert as in spooky

the horse needs a better rountine , he needs work everyday
and he needs to be taken off all grain and just fed hay - and no supplements
this will calm him down but it will take about 2 weeks for any feed stuffs to come out of his system
however when he can be fed once you have mastered him and say want a little more energy dont go giving him high energy feed stuff give him cool mix or low energy and dont go giving him any pelleted food as they are a complete feeds and often have high energy in the pellet

so take him of the grian and just feed him good quality hay ab lib
then check his tack fits him- as ill fitting tack will make him buck rear or spook nap also check the bridle fits and that bit fits him
also then check his teeth and back plus feet

if all ok then work the horse on long lines - if you cant do that then find someone like a dressage trianer or driving trianer that can

and work him for about an hour each say - then bring him back into the school and school also get someone decent like the above ie dressage trianer to look at you riding him as it might be your to heavy in the hand which can flip a horse

the horse was out on a ride the horse in front turned quickly if it happened really quickly then sounds like the horse had no where to go but up depends on what actually happened but horses dont flip for no reason
if it was muddy then its possible he slipped and then youmight have gripped so hard to keep him upright might have flip him due your riding

as for 2 bucks thats nothing all horses buck from time to time so thats a nothing