horse reared over backward "now what?"

[SRF1]

My boarders horse reared and flipped with me on a trail at the walk after we turned back toward home. No warning, just up and over. Fortunately I had my vest and helmet on. He was a little antsy as we were in some mud but nothing horrible. There was a horse right in front of him turning around also. After he dumped me, he ran by the other horse and galloped all the way home. He was sold to us as a trail packer/low level dressage. We have had him a year, he has bucked 2x before (he bucked the owner off the day before) but never anything this drastic. Is this a deal breaker for ever trusting this horse again? Neither one of us really wants to ride him again as we are afraid for our safety. Then, the next question is what do you do with a horse like this? I am not sure he should ever be sold as he might not be safe and we dont want anyone else to get hurt, but the owner is not sure she wants to keep him now if she cant ride him. He has been looked at by the vet and nothing stands out to warrent this behavior. He is 10 and sound.

Thanks for any input!

[Blugal]

I would immediately suspect saddle fit. When’s the last time you had a saddle-fitter out?

Also, if he has only gone over once it’s possible that will be enough for him, too.

I would advise consulting with an experienced horse person.

[Ruperman]

I had a horse go up and over on me once. I had put a flash on him because he kept getting his tongue up over the bit. He wouldn’t walk from the crossties. Then I got him outside with help of someone else, got on, and he flipped over from a dead stand still. I am lucky I was not hurt (we landed on the concrete wash stall outside).

I put him in the arena and he flipped over again with the flash on. The horse NEVER had any problems before or after the flash. I guess it was a hard way to learn some horses don’t like flashes. I got on the horse again, sans flash and did 4’ jumpers with him. Was I nervous he first time back on, YES.

I have also ridden a horse who absolutely could never lose sight of other horses on the trail. He would buck hard and run to catch up with his friends. I’m talking about if the horse and rider in front of me went around a turn, out of sight for a split second and this horse would freak out, so he always had to be first or in the middle.

If you’ve had this horse a year at your farm with no other problems, it may be something like saddle fit, weather, being under worked. I would say, put him in the arena or round pen and work him like that for a while and hand walk him out to the same area of the trail and see if he’s bad there again.

[VicariousRider]

It’s hard to know what to say exactly from the facts that you share in your post.

I had a mare that did this once and then it became her dirty trick. She never went over after the first time but you could feel it coming on (kind of the way you can feel a spook coming). When I felt her about to go up, I’d kicker her on forcefully and usually that got her through it. When she beat me to it, the moment her feet came off the ground I’d take the flat of my hand and smack her between the ears (not too hard). She though she was hitting her head so this would usually get her back down and then we would work on going FORWARD. It took a few months, but she eventually realized that the trick was no longer going to work.

If you decide to give it another try, be sure that the second you feel them rear you grab mane and don’t pull on the reins. Often the pulling is what causes them to lose their balance and flip.

Rearing is really scary. If you don’t feel comfortable working through it, maybe finding a trainer who has been through this before would be the best idea. It’s really hard to say what the long term prognosis is. The more this becomes a successful tactic for the horse, the harder it will be to undo. FWIW, my mare did this when she was 5 and she’s 17 now, I still have her, she no longer rears, but she does have one heck of a spook!!!

Good luck

[Kementari]

First, I hope you are OK and didn’t get landed on!

From the info provided, I’d say once would spook me, but not make me declare the horse unrideable. Once can be a horse freaking out and rearing, and either being pulled over by the rider accidentally or just losing his balance. Rearing in and of itself is a Bad Thing, of course, but it can also be an isolated incident. And, as someone else said, horsey may have learned from this already that rearing has scary consequences - horses in general don’t like falling over.

I, too, would suspect saddle fit or some other discomfort that is not manifesting as lameness, especially when a horse who sounds like a previously good citizen acts up twice in as many days.

Whatever they are, though, I’d be figuring out this horse’s trigger(s), pronto. I have trained a horse who was taught to rear and flip over by a previous trainer (who didn’t understand the whole “doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results” thing - and his “same thing” involved constant use of the crop and spurs :mad:). THAT horse had done it enough - and learned that if you flip over it gets rid of your rider and gets you out of work (at least briefly) every single time. I was never able to make him trustworthy again, but I do think if he’d sympathetic handling from the beginning (even after the first time he flipped), he probably would not have ended up the way he did. As it was, I was lucky that he only actually landed on me once, and that I was riding bareback when it happened (no nasty hard saddle parts to stick into me, at least).

(For the record, his owner, against my advice, sold him on, and to a child, no less. I did tell them the horse’s history when they came to try him (having told the owner that I would only continue to be involved if I could tell the complete truth to all prospective buyers), and they bought him anyway. I have no idea what happened after - the new owners lived out of the area and I didn’t really have the stomach to try and find out.)

I understand your reluctance, as I still have a hard time mentally dealing with horses rearing (even a little - and it’s been 14 years since that particular horse); it really backs me off, which doesn’t help a disobedience situation. Having a horse go over on you is VERY frightening, and your reluctance is totally understandable. :yes: That’s why the priority is on figuring out WHY he did it, so that you can have some confidence that he is unlikely to do it again.

[cindywilson]

Reared over? No way. One way trip to that stable in the sky.

[retreadeventer]

Once again, I would like to throw out a caution flag – internet training is a dicey area. You don’t know exactly what happened unless you were there. When you are the rider you don’t always see what is going on. Unless you are VERY experienced you really can’t tell WHY a horse does things even when you are right there watching or riding! If this horse is violently getting rid of riders to the point of doing it twice in two days, there’s something really hurting. But please get a professional in to find out. The internet is a bad place to do that!

[eponacowgirl]

I had one flip on me and it took me weeks of replaying to realize that while she was going forward, she wasn’t TRULY going forward and was quite sullen. I “rebalanced” into the canter and she flipped over on me.

Find a great trainer and proceed cautiously.

[Shantor]

[QUOTE=cindywilson;4807435]
Reared over? No way. One way trip to that stable in the sky.[/QUOTE]

haha I think thats a little bit dramatic…

Anyway, I had a young horse for a while who would rear out of fear and spookyness. She flipped twice. Once while on the cross ties being tacked up, and once with a rider on her back (not me though). It wassnt her fault and we worked through everything. She is now a super great trail horse for a small family. No problems at all.

I had another horse in training for a little while who figured she would rear whenever she didnt like something or didnt want to do something. Again, we worked through it and shes doing much better now. On her back if i ever felt her attempt to rear she got whacked and pushed forward. A Forward horse has a much harder time rearing that a horse who is sucking back or stopped. When she managed to get one out once in a blue moon I held onto some mane, leaned forward and held on, then kick kick kick and forward we went.

In your situation i would check any back problems or saddle fit first. Then possibly work with a trainer or specialist on trying to find out where this behavior started and how to fix it.
If you’ve had him for a year and he’s only had a few small problems before this one i would not give up.
Also… I’ve had to deal with a few horses who have done bad things and were never ridden again by their people. Its a bad BAD thing when a horse learns that rearing or bucking gets them out of work. If this IS behavioral and not physical please PLEASE, if you dont want to ride him, find someone who will not let him get away with it. Its an awful thing to try to train out of a horse who had gotten away with it for any amount of time.

[cssutton]

[QUOTE=retreadeventer;4807468]
Once again, I would like to throw out a caution flag – internet training is a dicey area. You don’t know exactly what happened unless you were there. When you are the rider you don’t always see what is going on. Unless you are VERY experienced you really can’t tell WHY a horse does things even when you are right there watching or riding! If this horse is violently getting rid of riders to the point of doing it twice in two days, there’s something really hurting. But please get a professional in to find out. The internet is a bad place to do that![/QUOTE]

You are right on.

All of this advice, all kinds of answers but no questions.

So a few questions to the OP:

What kind of bit?

What was going on in front of the horse at the time?

I don’t care to go back to the first post so I will ask: Who rides this horse most of the time? The same person who was on it when it flipped?

How good are you? Really? Can you take a horse that has never been ridden and back him?

Do you have any experience in dealing with bad horses?

I doubt saddle fit. Saddle fit might have caused the buck, but I doubt it caused the flip.

Has the horse had normal exercise within the last few days before the flip?

Feed amounts and routine the same?

Mare or gelding?

Does the horse have any other “peculiar” traits, likes or dislikes? Does it ever balk?

Does it work willingly or does it pout and sulk?

And most important, is there a hard nosed trainer, rider, bronc buster or whatever close by?

Some of the advice here sucks. For instance, insisting on forward movement, using spurs or crop, is an almost guaranteed way to make a horse who is threatening to rear to do so.

Rearing is caused by fear, resistance to go forward combined with a mean streak or pain in the mouth. Any of those combined with spurs, lots of leg or whip will guarantee a rear.

The best way to prevent rearing is to get the horse off balance before he goes up. That is best done by turning him sharply, and I mean sharply like bending him around your leg like he is a leg wrap.

If your choice is to the left, bring his head around your left leg like his neck is rubber and make him move to the left in a circle.

No horse can rear in that position.

However, you must do it before he starts up. Once he starts up, it is too late and pulling on anything is going to make him flip.

If you can 't answer honestly the question about your ability, do not ever get on this horse again until the horse has been evaluated by a first class horseman who has experience in dealing with difficult horses.

CSSJR

[mjedge808]

I agree: Internet training advice can be the wrong route. Find a professional in your area with experience in issues such as this. Glad you were not hurt! Hope you can figure it out and help the horse. I’m sure he didn’t like it any more than you.

[SRF1]

Thanks for all the advice!

To answer some questions:

He is in a jointed snaffle.

The saddle has been fit just last fall.

He DOES not like being girthed.

The majority of the time the owner is riding him. She is an advanced beginner with a very soft hand. When he bucked her off the day before all she did was mount him and when she gently put her leg in the stirrup he exploded like a bucking bronk till he got her off. I was there and it seemed very dirty, he wanted her off. I got right on him as I am more experienced and he was a perfect gentleman with me. I have delt with a rearing horse before but not one that flips. He went up and over on the first shot without any warning. It happened so fast. There was a horse right in front of him turning around at the time. He did seem a bit antsy about the mud. Not wanting to stand while the other horse turned around. We do not use spurs or a whip with this horse. He gets 24 hours turnout but had the winter off as we have no indoor. She had been on him approx 4 times this year and he was fine.

We are in the process of finding someone to work with this horse but we just are worried about if he should be sold knowing he has done this. We dont want ANYONE to get hurt including a trainer.

Thanks!

[Thomas_1]

in order of things to check:

Teeth, bitting, back, saddle fit, rider rein handling.

Sounds to me like there’s a cause that’s physical rather than behavioural from your description of the circumstances. I’d suggest (URGE!) you to get a horse trainer straight away to observe the horse being halted and turned under lunge lines first and then under saddle.

[edit]

[SRF1]

I forgot to mention he is up to date on everything including teeth. This horse wants for nothing, his owner is meticulous about his care.

The only thing medically was he had very low levels of Vit E, we put him on a liquid E supp over the winter and his levels are now normal. We tested him for lymes and he was low positive and we treated him and he is now neg. He is definately feeling better since the Vit e levels are back to normal. I am not sure if he is feeling so much better from that now that maybe his true colors are more likely to come out or he is just plain feeling good. Not sure. He definately tests his owner more in general riding and on the ground than someone like myself. He generally is a very sweet horse to have in the barn. He has however gotten much more agressive making faces at dinner time if you go near his stall and towards the other horses in the barn in the past year then when he first arrived.

[cssutton]

[QUOTE=SRF1;4807634]
Thanks for all the advice!

To answer some questions:

He is in a jointed snaffle.

The saddle has been fit just last fall.

He DOES not like being girthed.

The majority of the time the owner is riding him. She is an advanced beginner with a very soft hand. When he bucked her off the day before all she did was mount him and when she gently put her leg in the stirrup he exploded like a bucking bronk till he got her off. I was there and it seemed very dirty, he wanted her off. I got right on him as I am more experienced and he was a perfect gentleman with me. I have delt with a rearing horse before but not one that flips. He went up and over on the first shot without any warning. It happened so fast. There was a horse right in front of him turning around at the time. He did seem a bit antsy about the mud. Not wanting to stand while the other horse turned around. We do not use spurs or a whip with this horse. He gets 24 hours turnout but had the winter off as we have no indoor. She had been on him approx 4 times this year and he was fine.

We are in the process of finding someone to work with this horse but we just are worried about if he should be sold knowing he has done this. We dont want ANYONE to get hurt including a trainer.

Thanks![/QUOTE]

If he bucked on the 4th ride after months off due to a bad winter, I would not consider him to be a dead loss for that alone, although I don’t like it.

How old is the horse and how much has he been ridden in total?

Was he considered a made horse, dead broke, when you turned him out for the winter?

If it has been posted before, I missed it.

Not being there, it is really hard to judge, but it sounds like the rear might have been a fear thing.

He was standing in a soft spot that already had him upset, which is understandable if a horse has had little or no cross country riding. Then here is a a horse coming back, maybe out of more mud ahead???

The horse coming back is signaling “My God, that is a bad mud hole and I am getting OUT!!!”

And that set him off?

Just a guess. But horses are at the top of the list of herd animals with the herd panic. I suppose deer would be #1 with horses next.

If one horse senses fear or upset in another, bingo! His red buttons all get pressed.

Again, not being there, a lot of guessing.

Even so, the fact that you are asking for help says that you need help.

So don’t write the horse off. Get some competent help.

That is not always easy. Everyone is an expert around horses. So be sure you get help from someone that knows what he is doing and will not make the horse worse than he is.

CSSJR

[PnkPanthr]

[QUOTE=cindywilson;4807435]
Reared over? No way. One way trip to that stable in the sky.[/QUOTE]

Wow. Way to not even give the horse a chance. You don’t know if its because of pain, or a behavioral problem. Even so, behaviorial problem can still be fixed. I know a horse that had a rearing problem, and once it got fixed, it turned out to be an awesome CCI** event horse. So you never know. Especially if the horse is uncomfortable, thats just not fair.

“…and he whispered to the horse, trust no man in whose eyes you do not see yourself reflected as an equal.”

Access the situation, have out vet/chiropractor/farrier/dentist etc to rule out physical problems, and if everything comes out clean, I would send it to a cowboy or a professional. They have dealt with these kind of horses before and they will know what to do.

[cssutton]

[QUOTE=SRF1;4807722]
I forgot to mention he is up to date on everything including teeth. This horse wants for nothing, his owner is meticulous about his care.

The only thing medically was he had very low levels of Vit E, we put him on a liquid E supp over the winter and his levels are now normal. We tested him for lymes and he was low positive and we treated him and he is now neg. He is definately feeling better since the Vit e levels are back to normal. I am not sure if he is feeling so much better from that now that maybe his true colors are more likely to come out or he is just plain feeling good. Not sure. He definately tests his owner more in general riding and on the ground than someone like myself. He generally is a very sweet horse to have in the barn. He has however gotten much more agressive making faces at dinner time if you go near his stall and towards the other horses in the barn in the past year then when he first arrived.[/QUOTE]

Many horses get tuned up when they get fit, but making a face at feeding time would not concern me.

But four rides does not make him a super fit tuned up horse. It sounds more like his owner is not up to the job and he is picking up a little more on that each time she rides and that it has now become a matter to be dealt with.

Just guessing from a long ways away.

CSSJR

[Old_Time_Rider]

I’d get an equine dentist to check out the teeth. I was given a well bred mare that reared over, she ALWAYS had the best in veterinarian care from the best equine vets in the area - including teeth floating. ASAP I had my equine dentist out and when he opened her mouth, OMG, hooks where the bit rests, hooks coming down (no dropped nosebands were going to stop the mouth opening), luckily we caught it in time and were able to ‘save’ her mouth. 48 hours later her whole demeanor changed and she was/is so much more relaxed. This is a broodmare (who won’t get pregnant) so riding her isn’t an issue, now a sweet fancy lawn ornament. If they had only used an equine dentist …and no I’m NOT an equine dentist.

[PRS]

Another idea is to have his teeth checked…here is another story…
A fellow member of my trail club who is an older gentleman…been involved with horses all his life and trained horses until he got too old to do it has a very nice young gelding that he really likes. However, the gelding started having behaviorial issues that he was having some real problems with. He changed his feed 3 times…he had chiro out twice, he had acupuncture done and a saddle fit analysis…nothing helped and he was ready to sell the horse. Until he realized that there was one thing he hadn’t changed…the horse had been on a daily wormer. Almost as soon as he took the horse off the daily wormer his behavioral problems went away and he reverted to the sweet horse he had before. Just a thought.
Another: My DIL has a horse that started having some problems focusing on her performance, was antsy being tied, mounted, and danced in the trailer for the whole ride. They started treating her for ulcers…problem solved.
Lots of horses that are having problems like ulcers or other stomache upsets get girthy and show out like the horse that flipped on you…the only way they have to show their discomfort is to with their behavior…If this is something new I’d check for either ulcers or something else that is making him uncomfortable.

[europa]

Have you thought about ulcers? Alot of what you describe sounds potentially like he might have them.

He sounds like the type that needs to know he cannot get away with naughty tricks. I too would have someone experienced reinforce the premise that you DO NOT abuse the humans.

Be careful and stay safe.