Horse refuses to move when mounted, possibilities why?

[Coanteen]

[QUOTE=kfallon;7780660]
As far as the whip goes, she is not scared of it what so ever! I can rub it all over her, swing it in the air, hell I can even sit on her back and crack it an she doesn’t flinch. Ive never hit her with it either! Personally I don’t like whips, for any reason. I do use a lunge with sometimes with other horses, but if she will listen to my hand signals and voice while lunging, I don’t see why not using a whip is a problem.[/QUOTE]

It’s a problem if the horse charges you with pinned ears when you hold it. It’s a problem that when she does that, you choose to forgo the lunge whip, rather than getting her to accept its presence. That is the problem - if the horse was fine with or without the whip but you just preferred hand signals, it wouldn’t be a problem at all. But the horse isn’t.

Look OP, this isn’t your horse, and you don’t indicate that you’re a pro paid for working with this dangerous-under-saddle mare. Tell the older lady to dump her back into pasture or send her to a willing pro with disclosure of her issues, why put your own health at risk for this?

[wendy]

You said she charged you with it when you longed her with it. Your words, not mine.

The problem with that is that right there she is either demonstrating fear or a lack of respect. One or the other. And that will carry over into the saddle.

most likely the poor horse was abused in the past, and you appear to be advocating this person proceed with more abuse of the horse in order to make the horse “respect” him/her.
Beating up a horse doesn’t make the horse respect you. If your dad or a bully beats you or forces you to something do you “respect” him? no, you learn to hate him, distrust him and you just might try to attack him sometime. That’s what this horse is doing with the lunge whip. Most horses don’t mind lunge whips because they are just directional tools but perhaps someone actually whipped the horse with one in the past. If the horse lunges just fine off voice, then why bring the whip into it?
Clever trainers don’t push animals to the point where they feel they have to explode and fight back. With an animal as big as a horse provoking a fight is a really bad idea. Any hack trainers who go around spouting off silly words like “respect”, by which they usually mean “beat and bully the animal until it shuts down” are the kind of people who end up causing train-wrecks.

Training is best done slowly and gently in baby steps, with the animal set up to succeed and enjoy each step. Reinforcement, both positive and negative, is used to alter the animal’s behavior and teach the animal what behaviors are wanted. Respect is completely irrelevant. I’m not even sure animals understand the concept.

The real, and only, issue here is the horse won’t move when mounted. Rule out some kind of pain issue first obviously. The safest thing to do is to get someone to just lead the horse with the rider up- and try to make it fun for the horse. Work the horse on the ground, then get on the horse, then have someone lead the mounted horse a few feet and reward by feeding a treat. Gradually extend the length of the rides. Next move on to having the mounted horse follow a group of other mounted horses for a short distance. Gradual, gentle baby steps. Make sure to not even try to provoke the horse into a reaction- get off and walk away if necessary. Maybe move on to gentle, relaxed trail rides following other horses- most horses enjoy going on trail rides. Alternatively, you can try “waiting her out.” Most horses won’t stand motionless for hours, especially if you cleverly mount her out in the blazing sun. EVENTUALLY she’ll move a few feet and then you can praise and reward and get off and put her up. So she learns it’s easier to just move than stand there motionless.

The OP talks about building trust- one of the easiest ways to build trust is clicker-train ground work with a horse. You can train horses into the most wonderful ground manners with a clicker, without ever having to the make the horse “respect” you, and a side-effect is the horse a) learns to trust people, making it less likely the horse will hurt anyone, and b) learns to follow along and tolerate the weird things people do without complaint, again making it much less likely the horse will hurt anyone.

[OneGrayPony]

most likely the poor horse was abused in the past, and you appear to be advocating this person proceed with more abuse of the horse in order to make the horse “respect” him/her.

Uh wendy… Did you not see my prior post that said that you don’t EVER hit a horse with a longe whip?

No?

Please read all my posts - quoted here for clarity:

I would not try mounting this mare again until she longed both ways, calmly, with the longe whip. What I think is that you pushed this mare, and she is rightly seriously pissed off.

There are some horses you can jump right back on after time off and there are many that you can’t. This mare is going to need serious, slow, desensitization and training until she feels like you’re giving her a good deal. Because right now it’s pretty obvious that you aren’t.

Meant to add…

You don’t hit a horse with a longe whip either. It’s a guide. And even once a horse like this is responding both ways happily on the longe to voice commands, isn’t afraid of the whip, I’d still have a helper for the first mounting.

The is a dangerous situation. Probably best left to pros, but if you insist, then I’d take the long slow approach with this mare.

Touch yes, whip no. My suspicion based on the OP is that mare has an aversion now to the longe whip. Usually doesn’t happen from a few light taps.

At any rate, I agree. Dangerous situation.

All that prior to the post you decided to selectively quote, wendy.

I’ve had a mare with a lack of respect that had nothing to do with abuse. I was 12. She charged me in the pasture because she didn’t want to be ridden when I’d go to catch her. I was leaving that possibility open after the OP said that the mare wasn’t afraid of the whip.

[Coanteen]

^ yes yes, rankness/aggressiveness immediately ascribed to “most likely” abuse, and the horse characterized as “poor horse.”

This horse is a one-owner horse, who used to be a children’s mount. OP seems to be good friends with owner. Perhaps OP should ask owner when and how her horse was terribly abused, then?

[OneGrayPony]

Oh - and the reason I said not to ride the horse until she was over her aversion to the whip is related to the fact that this mare IS NOT READY TO RIDE.

A horse, even one who has been abused by a whip, can be taught to accept the whip. But you know what? That takes TIME. TIME. TIME.

And Time is what this mare needs. The remount was badly screwed up.

Oy.

[Flash44]

"Clever trainers don’t push animals to the point where they feel they have to explode and fight back. With an animal as big as a horse provoking a fight is a really bad idea. Any hack trainers who go around spouting off silly words like “respect”, by which they usually mean “beat and bully the animal until it shuts down” are the kind of people who end up causing train-wrecks.

Training is best done slowly and gently in baby steps, with the animal set up to succeed and enjoy each step. Reinforcement, both positive and negative, is used to alter the animal’s behavior and teach the animal what behaviors are wanted. Respect is completely irrelevant. I’m not even sure animals understand the concept."

The term “respect” when used to talk about a horse’s behavior is not the same as when it is used to talk about a person’s attitude. Maybe “defer” is a better term. And you don’t need to be abusive to get a horse to respect you.

[Chall]

While the theoretical “why will a horse not move” has been answered, the only important thing Imo is

" bucking, rearing, and then she fell over. It all happened so fast I dont know if she lost her footing or what. When she fell I think she hit her head on the ground because she was knocked out for atleast 5 mins, completely unresponsive."

Since op hasn’t called vet, can we just declare this thread done?

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

[QUOTE=Chall;7781149]

Since op hasn’t called vet, can we just declare this thread done?[/QUOTE]

It’s not OP’s horse, so I don’t think calling the vet is up to her?

OP, you sound like a nice young person trying to help out an older person who has a horse she can’t manage. Often times, I hear older people say a horse just “needs a confident teenager.” What they often mean, I suspect, is that broken bones heal a lot faster when the person is younger (and most importantly, belong to someone else).

I think this is not really your problem. No reason you need to get hurt, or get this horse hurt, when her owner is the one who needs to step up, call the vet, and then, depending on the diagnosis, call a trainer.

[Weighaton]

We just experienced a similar situation just this past weekend. I brought my daughters out to trail ride with a family friend. They are riding their horses and he brings out an arab gelding that he has tried to train. He has ridden him about a dozen times on the trail. It is always a fight according to him. He tries to saddle this horse and the horse collapses on the ground. The girth wasn’t even tightened yet. The horse gets up and he proceeds to try to finish saddling him. I am standing there with my mouth agape. I take the leadline on his rope halter and watch him. In a second he starts to ease back as if he is going to do it again. I yanked him hard and he stopped surprised. A few minutes passed during which the wife comes over and pets the horse saying things like “Poor baby, its ok”. I asked her to stop petting and praising him. I took my attention from the horse for a second. This insane horse then rears up and THROWS himself over on his back. Gets up and does it again!!! I have never witnessed anything so bizarre in all my life. This guy was going to get on him anyway and I said absolutely not. No way. The wife says that he just needs to work with him more often. I told the guy that this horse (free) was not worth it. All I can figure is that it was a spoiled rotten horse who learned some extreme evasive behavior. The odd thing was that he had a second horse who was lovely and he had also started her. Please do not accept the challenge of retraining this horse. She is obviously dangerous.

[OneGrayPony]

It is always a fight according to him. He tries to saddle this horse and the horse collapses on the ground. The girth wasn’t even tightened yet. The horse gets up and he proceeds to try to finish saddling him. I am standing there with my mouth agape.

Uh, yeah…Nope. I think the last thing on my mind would be “finish saddling that horse”.

This insane horse then rears up and THROWS himself over on his back. Gets up and does it again!!! I have never witnessed anything so bizarre in all my life. This guy was going to get on him anyway and I said absolutely not. No way.

That guy must have good insurance and the wife is trying to off him. That’s all I can think of!!!

[Stushica]

[QUOTE=Weighaton;7781741]
This insane horse then rears up and THROWS himself over on his back. Gets up and does it again!!! [/QUOTE]

I saw a cute title POA do this once! She reared up and over, while saddled at least 3-4 times rolling down the isle way like an easter egg. We all stood there mouths open in shock, it was suppose to be some nice kids pony that our new boarders just bought for their daughter. I will never forget how shocked we all were.

As for the OP, I just wanted to wish you good luck, and I hope you can find someone local to help you with this mare, not because you lack skill per-say, but because I would be leery of her and don’t want you getting hurt while alone! Also you might try two buckets of feed to get her from point A to point B when you do get back on her, however, I would spend lots of time on the ground first re-enforcing voice commands and teaching the horse to move off of pressure.

[CHT]

If I felt she was physically ok, I would try ponying her if possible.

You could also try longing her with a “dummy” on board (I have used stuffed coveralls for this purpose). Use a chain over the nose in case her reaction is to buck/bolt so you can derail the avoidance.

Do you have a friend who could ride with you on a gentle horse? Perhaps the mare would be happy to follow another horse so you can get her moving.

Has you had her teeth checked?

[Faith]

I’ll just say it, since everyone else is dancing around it. OP you are not qualified to work with this horse, send her back to her owner so they can send her to someone who is.