Horse resisting the contact and giraffe syndrome

[emilyzwz]

[QUOTE=luvmydutch;8941301]
When he resists, do you pull harder or do you supple his poll and neck? What work are you doing with him to supple his poll, neck, shoulders, hindquarters? How does he take to your inside leg?

What is your correction to show the horse that going too fast isn’t what you were asking?

What is your correction for resistance to the contact?

Does the horse leg yield? Turn on the forehand?[/QUOTE]

I basically stay the same if he starts to resist and let him figure it out but he’s very rude about it and he’ll run through all the aids. When he starts running we just bring him back to a normal pace and try the transition again in a few steps. We’ve been doing lots of lateral work and we rarely go straight and almost always on a circle. We’ve done some leg-yielding and he’s ok with it at first but after a few times he gets very fed up with it and wills start protesting again. He’s a horse that doesn’t do well with drills.

[emilyzwz]

[QUOTE=AppendixQHLover;8941489]
My first questions are: Have you had the horse vetted to make sure there is no physical reason why he is responding like that? Have his teeth been checked? Has he been chiro’d? Does his saddle fit properly?[/QUOTE]

Yes he’s perfectly sound and his teeth were just floated, which did not make a difference at all. Even though I personally do not believe in chiropractor, he still had a few appointments, during which we didn’t find any physical issues. And yes after going through many saddle fitters we eventually found the perfect saddle for this guy.

[AppendixQHLover]

[QUOTE=emilyzwz;8941553]
Yes he’s perfectly sound and his teeth were just floated, which did not make a difference at all. Even though I personally do not believe in chiropractor, he still had a few appointments, during which we didn’t find any physical issues. And yes after going through many saddle fitters we eventually found the perfect saddle for this guy.[/QUOTE]

Just wondered because sometimes they can be cranky like that. I do a lot of stretching with my guy…and he does get chiro’d while getting fit.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

OP first check the bit. Most single joint bits hit the horse in the upper palate. Try a eggbutt French snaffle. And also make sure you check the thickness of the bit.
Your horse inverts because he doesn’t have the muscle to carry himself.
You build a correct top line by correctly riding to build the top line.
Turn on the forehand is a great exercise for this because it doesn’t start with bend it ends with it.
Also don’t pull your horse’s nose in.
You must learn to ride back to front and learn how to activate the horse’s hind leg. The energy comes from behind.
This is going to take patience. He can’t build the correct muscles in a week.
Also get out of the ring and go on a trail ride or do some trot work on hills.
And lastly don’t do 50 20 meter circles trying to get it perfect.
It is much better to get 6 steps of self carriage that is correct instead of half an hour of him rushing around on his forehand.
Check out 101 Arena Exercises. You can get some ideas for your schooling.
Hope this helps and good riding.

[SendenHorse]

[QUOTE=emilyzwz;8941549]
I basically stay the same if he starts to resist and let him figure it out but he’s very rude about it and he’ll run through all the aids. When he starts running we just bring him back to a normal pace and try the transition again in a few steps. We’ve been doing lots of lateral work and we rarely go straight and almost always on a circle. We’ve done some leg-yielding and he’s ok with it at first but after a few times he gets very fed up with it and wills start protesting again. He’s a horse that doesn’t do well with drills.[/QUOTE]

this tells me you need more core and better response to the HH. All horses do these things. Try to catch him before he rushes by really focusing on the metronome with your seat. HALT if he is blowing you off.

Be careful that you aren’t loosing the shoulders or haunches with so much circle work.

You say a lot about being “me vs him”. He is not being rude or protesting= he is looking for guidance and likely out of balance (ie- rushing)

Again, never ever met a horse that goes on the bit and stays in temp just because.

Work with a good biomechanics person to check out your seat. It really will help. If you are sending mixed messages this is often times what happens.

[ThreeFigs]

Good contact is built rear to front with a softening hand and over the back, lifting and seeking the connection. NEVER by “pulling the horse round” as one trainer put it.

I agree, though, that his experiences as a foxhunter probably contribute to his problem. This will take time. Lots of time. He may even have bone spurs/damage from lousy riding or harsh bits. Have you tried a Mullen mouth bit or a rubber bit?

You need a VERY skilled instructor/trainer. Perhaps Vienna reins or a chambon is in order to help “explain” things to him. IF he doesn’t have actual mouth damage. I seldom recommend such things – but how does he do in a bitless bridle?

[luvmyhackney]

Find a trainer with patience and have you tried in hand work with him? What bit, I would go with the softest bit I could find. Also, how heavy of a contact are you trying to take, it might need to be built up with " Dressage contact" and just start featherlight and a few steps at a time, praise and rinse repeat. Have you tried different rein holds as well and height for your hands to make sure your not pulling on the bars? Have you tried contact up and down hills or pole work so he’s more focused on where to put his feet instead of contact?

Just different things that have helped horses I’ve worked with over the years.

[Color_of_Light]

[QUOTE=emilyzwz;8941553]
Yes he’s perfectly sound and his teeth were just floated, which did not make a difference at all. Even though I personally do not believe in chiropractor, he still had a few appointments, during which we didn’t find any physical issues. And yes after going through many saddle fitters we eventually found the perfect saddle for this guy.[/QUOTE]

Basic float by a general vet, or thorough dentistry by skilled horse dentist vet? What was horse’s previous dental history? Incorrect dental can cause all those problems. I had a different vet than my regular vet dentist do a dental on a horse this summer. Messed up the horse big time. Horse was very upset, hollow, resistant, would halt inverted completely on forehand, couldn’t back up one step and would rear, carreening around faster and faster, very very tense and unhappy.

My wonderful regular vet dentist did the teeth over. Bad vet did not reduce incisors, so horse’s bite was completely messed up. Also did the wrong angles on the surface of the teeth and how they are supposed to touch. Missed hooks in the back. Took too much tooth on one side. My vet fixed everything and horse was restored to original happy and ridable horse.

If his TMJ is inflammed, can cause behavior you’re experiencing. Then that effects the rest of horse’s body.

[mountainhorse]

I would be checking (and rechecking if done already)-
-Teeth (get a different vet/dentist to check the previous work), and depending on how long ago, he may need to be done again.
-TMJ pain, checked by therapist and vet
-Saddle Fit (horses change. Get it rechecked)
-Is his back or body sore anywhere? If so, get it checked out by a massage therapist, chiro, and vet.
-Spinal issues checked and cleared from vet
-Bit: change them out and see what happens. If you are in a single jointed snaffle, try something double jointed to avoid pinching.

Groundwork-how is he on the lunge, freely moving? Without saddle? With? What about once he has a bridle on? Side reins?
Narrow down ‘what’ is the issue and work from there. Remember it takes a lot of strength on the horse’s part to work over their back and if he ‘starts off fine and gets worse’, or ‘doesn’t like drills’, it may be that he is not strong enough to hold what you are asking. Ask for less and build it up.

[Color_of_Light]

[QUOTE=mountainhorse;8941883]
I would be checking (and rechecking if done already)-
-Teeth (get a different vet/dentist to check the previous work), and depending on how long ago, he may need to be done again.
-TMJ pain, checked by therapist and vet
-Saddle Fit (horses change. Get it rechecked)
-Is his back or body sore anywhere? If so, get it checked out by a massage therapist, chiro, and vet.
-Spinal issues checked and cleared from vet
-Bit: change them out and see what happens. If you are in a single jointed snaffle, try something double jointed to avoid pinching.

Groundwork-how is he on the lunge, freely moving? Without saddle? With? What about once he has a bridle on? Side reins?
Narrow down ‘what’ is the issue and work from there. Remember it takes a lot of strength on the horse’s part to work over their back and if he ‘starts off fine and gets worse’, or ‘doesn’t like drills’, it may be that he is not strong enough to hold what you are asking. Ask for less and build it up.[/QUOTE]

Yes! If the teeth are not right, it all unravels from there on down to the hind legs. As a person who once had bite problems after getting a new crown that threw my bite off and jaw to go a little bit to the side, which lead to subluxated vertebrae in my atlas and neck, I can attest to that! Migraines on down to hip issues. Once the crown was adjusted, bite was adjusted, neck was fixed, my bite was fixed. Body was happy again.

[luvmydutch]

[QUOTE=emilyzwz;8941549]
I basically stay the same if he starts to resist and let him figure it out but he’s very rude about it and he’ll run through all the aids. When he starts running we just bring him back to a normal pace and try the transition again in a few steps. We’ve been doing lots of lateral work and we rarely go straight and almost always on a circle. We’ve done some leg-yielding and he’s ok with it at first but after a few times he gets very fed up with it and wills start protesting again. He’s a horse that doesn’t do well with drills.[/QUOTE]

For a horse like this who is not accepting contact, and who is using his strong “under neck” muscles to balance his body (he’s not being bad, just balancing his body the way that is most comfortable for him), I would not just hold steady if I wasn’t getting a response to my half halts (assuming you have just worked him at his normal paces with a contact for him to have a chance to be accustomed to it, without asking him to come into a frame).

#1) I would be suppling every inch of this horse’s body…but ESPECIALLY the poll and second especially the neck when I wasn’t getting the reaction I wanted from my half halts. A locked poll will block the horse’s hind end from coming over their backs. To supple the poll, you need to hold a SUPPORTING (firm) outside rein, while turning your wrist on the inside for a second and returning it immediately to it’s normal position 3 times successively. Your aim is just to have the horse giving in the poll…not the jaw or neck. At the same time, add inside leg to increase bend as well.

#2). Supple the neck. Jane Savoie and Ruth Hogan Paulsen have a great technique for suppling called the “valium exercise” that supples the neck. Again, with a firm outside supporting rein, “turn the key” in the lock 3 times to the inside, but this time you are suppling the NECK and so you want your horse’s nose to be roughly 7" to the inside of the center of his chest. You again must return immediately back to starting position in your hands if you don’t get the desired response right away.

3). Supple the shoulders by using your outside rein to ask the horse’s shoulders to step to the side. You can ride squares practicing this with big praise for correct responses.

4). Turn on the forehand to make sure your horse understands that when you apply the leg, one hind leg is to cross over the other. If your horse doesn’t understand this, he will not understand how to correctly leg yield.

5). Leg yield on the wall in hand to solidify leg yielding is correct in his mind.

6). Leg yielding out on a circle

7). suppling of the poll and neck OFTEN. Even in your half halts, add leg, hold a steady outside rein, and instead of sponging your inside rein, do 3 big 7" supples instead.

Just holding the reins taut won’t make your horse come round. You must work his body in such a way that he will start to lift his back up under you. This is accomplished first through:

#1). Suppling
#2). Tempo (if he rushes, halt him KINDLY, as you are just teaching him the right way, not punishing him, and continue on in the trot). Lather rinse repeat. Ask for slowing by slowing your posting and sucking in your tummy, if no response, halt! (maybe back up too in the beginning…kindly of course). Repeat IMMEDIATELY
#3). correct contact (is your contact elastic?)
#4) Correct half halts, maybe altered by asking for a supple during the half halt for a very stiff horse (i do this sometimes with my stiff, thick necked morgan).
#5)correct circles with the shoulders and hindquarters to the inside of the ribcage in a banana shape

Here is a good lesson series of a girl who rides bitless on an older, stiff horse who doesn’t understand half halts or bending. The transformation from the beginning of the ride to the end is amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRlmQ9pLSqY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3xBaGPiDSg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL2Z6Iru_us

If you follow the youtube links, you can watch day 2 of this lesson too. It will give you an awesome starting place of how to work your horse to get him working round. It doesn’t involve just holding the reins taut.

have fun, and know that he isn’t being bad or rude, just trying to be comfortable. Be fair and kind always to him Best of luck!

[Grey_Pony]

I don’t generally post, just lurk, but felt I had to put in my 2 cents. I second what J-Lu said about back issues.
I purchased a 10yo QH cross in February. Tried him 3 times-once at the seller’s and twice at my place. My trainer was with me at my barn. I was told that he had been with several owners, started Western (white hairs probably from an ill fitting Western saddle), then as a hunter/trail horse and had given some lessons. He too wanted to travel like a giraffe but he seemed willing to try and stretch when I rode him although he couldn’t hold it for long. Had a thorough PPE but when the seller rode him my vet did not see any red flags.
Trainer and I figured he just had no idea of what it was like to travel any other way so we started very slowly-thinking it would take several months at least for his muscles to change. From the beginning he had massage, chiro, acupuncture, did carrot stretches and belly lifts, saddle fit, teeth. He was making baby steps but not the improvement I had hoped.
Then in July we hit a wall. When anyone sat on his back he would plant his feet, throw his head up, hollow his back and refuse to move. No problem lunging (although not a lot of stretching)-only when he had a rider. We knew it wasn’t attitude. Vet checked him again and couldn’t find anything so suggested back x-rays. No one found anything on palpation. Discovered that he had a case of kissing spine. Not severe-vertebrae not actually touching but close. But it’s right where a rider would sit. Possibly the ligaments between the vertebrae were inflamed as well. Some horses might not even react but this little guy seems sensitive.
Why didn’t he react in the beginning? Just a theory but I think he sort of had a wall up due to possibly having been ridden badly. It took several months with me til he learned I would listen to him and then he let his guard down and indicated that he was hurting.
Shock wave didn’t help so I had his back injected last month. Will try him under saddle after Thanksgiving. I’ve seen some improvement in that he now willingly stretches on the lunge line. I’ve got my fingers crossed that his pain is gone and he’ll tolerate a rider.
So while this may not apply to the OP’s horse, it is something to consider.

[CFFarm]

A horse that goes upside down and above the aids is in a tragic circle. The muscles become developed just the opposite of what is desired and muscle memory is a hard thing to undo. the more you try to push the horse forward the more the head goes up and the back goes down.
I have had several of these types. I suggest starting with flexions of the jaw and poll from the ground. Then move to the saddle (there’s plenty of books and videos out there of how to). Then I use a shadow roll (the horse has to look over it) and then a RUNNING martingale (the horse feels pressure when he raises his head). Some will tell you these are gimmicks but when the horse has developed the wrong muscles and way of going they are helpful tools to use along with the bending and lateral exercises mentioned above.

[caper]

Did I miss what bit you use? I had this exact scenario with my first horse. He came going in a Pelham. Carried himself lovely but I wanted to pursue dressage. So the hard core old German trainer just slapped on a single jointed snaffle. He went like a giraffe avoiding bit contact. Didn’t make for a fun ride at all. I persevered for some time attempting him to seek contact to no avail.

I discussed with another trainer and she mentioned that maybe he had a small mouth. She stated that a singled jointed bit like caused him pain. So we went to a french link bit. This was years ago when this bit was somewhat new and hard to find. It was not an overnight success as he had to overcome the memory of pain and it took time for him to trust and seek contact. I was a long process but we succeeded over time. I was able to show him in dressage. Over the years he did develop true self carriage. I ran into friends at shows and they thought I had a new horse. Nope same horse…I was so proud. All our hard work paid off.

[CERT]

I’m curious about the type of bit as well and how that might play into it.

My in-laws have a QH mare that I started getting back into work for them last year in exchange for usinf her in my lesson program. When I first got on her she was 100% giraffe. We were (and are) working in a cross-under style bitless bridle (like Dr. Cook’s, but better because this design eliminates the rein rings) because she had summer sore lip lesions in the past that healed and caused the corners of her lips to be uneven making use of the bit inadvisable (plus not wanting to abrade the scar tissue).

Through a lot of suppling work over the last year she is going better. At the start she would either stargaze or roll peanuts when she finally released, but over time she started to even out and now she usually hangs out in the middle range between slightly inverted and slightly rounded. She will still pile-drive on her forehand, but it is usually when the contact is dropped and instead of recycling her energy it starts dumping onto her forehand. Part of the suppling work that really helped her was reconfirming the leg-yield aids, changing bend often, and insisting that she give /round when we came to a halt instead of dropping the weight on her shoulders and raising her head.

[right_horse_at_the_right_time]

If none of these great advice posts helps, send me a PM. Finally fixed this in my horse. Happy to share what we did that did and did not work so that you can try it on for size and see what fits.

[Mila]

I think you have had lots of well thought out responses and all is very good advice. Sadly just because a horse has been looked at by a vet (sometimes more than one vet) doesnt mean nothing is wrong.
The fact that the problems escalate through a ride, and in particular you mentioned the leg yield suggests to you something hurts, somewhere. Its your job to find it.

In cases like these, I start at the most likely and or easiest and start re- ticking off the boxes. I would in this case start at the mouth. A teeth specialist, not the vet (I’ve also had a vet do a float and make a mess which took 6mo for the specialist to fix up- had to wait for teeth to erupt further to completely sort). Then look at bits, followed by back and saddle. Then I would start on training, maybe bitless if you can do so safely, first. On the ground. Then once you are starting to get the ideas through to him, add in a mild bit. You’ll need to do a lot of reading and/ or get some help. As has been mentioned, this stage will need to go slow. You mentioned in your first post that he gets strong. It should never get to that again. You have gone too far and missed the cues if you need to get to a tug of war. That wont succeed in retraining him. Each time you need to manhandle his face to regain some control you are undoing all the hard work.So keep that in mind. We all make mistakes at times but as long as you are mindful of what you are doing and take responsibility for your work you will get there. I really hope the pain problem is a minor and fixable one, so you can get to the training again. It sounds like a great learning opportunity for you.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[silverdog]

Story of my life. I have a lease horse currently and he is the most shut down horse in dressage I have ever dealt with. Goes great when he thinks that we are either hacking, conditioning in the pastures or we are jumping. As soon as we go in the dressage arena he just turns off. After trying a few things the assumption is that the riding he has had in the past involved forcing him to put his head down and kicking him with spurs into the contact. So now comes the project of regaining his trust. I do nothing other than to ask him to go forward and there is a ton of leaway with that - if it takes him 20 steps to get going, so be it. Soft contact on bit, only thing I do with my hands is to occasionally ask for a tiny inside flexion - the minute he softens his poll/neck/jaw, I go back to quiet hands doing nothing. Trainer thinks this is a 2-3 month project. Will be taking him on fun outings and doing very low level horse trials were he gets to just go around the dressage ring and do his test - no pressure. Then he can go enjoy himself with the jumping. He is an adorable little thing and I am hopeful we can turn him around. He has been seen by the vet - has regular acupuncture for comfort and he enjoys it. It has also been a real eye opener for me and a good learning experience. I have another horse to be restarted in the spring who has physical issues instead of mental issues but we will use the same method.

[emilyzwz]

[QUOTE=caper;8943094]
Did I miss what bit you use? I had this exact scenario with my first horse. He came going in a Pelham. Carried himself lovely but I wanted to pursue dressage. So the hard core old German trainer just slapped on a single jointed snaffle. He went like a giraffe avoiding bit contact. Didn’t make for a fun ride at all. I persevered for some time attempting him to seek contact to no avail.

I discussed with another trainer and she mentioned that maybe he had a small mouth. She stated that a singled jointed bit like caused him pain. So we went to a french link bit. This was years ago when this bit was somewhat new and hard to find. It was not an overnight success as he had to overcome the memory of pain and it took time for him to trust and seek contact. I was a long process but we succeeded over time. I was able to show him in dressage. Over the years he did develop true self carriage. I ran into friends at shows and they thought I had a new horse. Nope same horse…I was so proud. All our hard work paid off.[/QUOTE]

Ok so we used to be in a Myler 1st level and also tried a very mild French link. Since he can get kind of strong in it we thought about bitting up. After I did some research I decided to do the opposite and threw a HS Duo, basically a Nathe on him and he went lovely in it. Not only can I finally take some contact with his mouth, but also he was stretching very nicely in it. I guess it must have been a trust issue with the bit. He seems to use himself a lot better and can really stretch into the contact with it. It was crazy to look at the difference of before and after.

[SuzieQNutter]

YAAAYYY