Horse resisting the contact and giraffe syndrome

[emilyzwz]

*Long post

Ok I feel like I’m at my wits’ end. A little bit history about my horse-bought him at 10 years old last year and he was practically unbroke on the flat. He spent his previous 10 years as a foxhunter but we’re hoping to do eventing. He jumps good but dressage has been our biggest enemy.

Our problem, to simplify, is that he does not take the contact at all. He happily walks in a loose rein but as soon as I collect a little bit of reins, the forward motion stop and all the energy goes up. Now we’ve tried to get him to go forward after his head goes up see if we can push him into the contact, instead he just goes faster and faster with his head up in the air and his back hollow. At this point, we’re at a place that he can trot ok on a minimal contact but if I touch his face a little more he goes back into that hollow frame. However, as soon as we try to canter, oh boy he first ignores my hands and seat, hollows up, and start running around like a crazy person. Also he gets very strong at the canter that it felt almost impossible to get through to him. If I do increase the contact in the canter, he gets mad mad mad and starts his tossing, spinning and threatens to rear and will bulge out here and there to distract you from the contact problem.

I have lunged him in side reins, checked all possible vetting issues, and occasionally he is able to do one or two nice canter transitions, but the rest of the time he either tosses his head up, or he just trots faster and faster-almost seems like he just can’t put softness and canter transition together in his mind???

Has anyone had these issues and how did you solve it?

[Manni01]

Sorry to say, but IMO its a patience thing…if you are doing the right things, eventually he will get used to it. But if he stops when you pick up the reins, it sounds like he lost faith in contact… maybe somebody overdid it in the past. So now you have to work on his trust. Don’t demand anything he doesn’t want to give… Dressage is about patience and building up trust…

[shall]

My mare tenses up longitudinally. If you can supple her side to side during the warmup, she comes down on the bit and relaxes. Just push one side one way, then push her barrel the other way. She’s short backed and needs this in her warm up.

She still will need to do renvers and travers to totally supple her, but this simple warm up helps.

[caper]

What is the mouth piece on the bit? What kind of bit are you using? Does it fit? If they are too big you will get a reaction.

[Velvet]

Patience, and check the bit. Honestly, most people do not know much about the interior shape of their horse’s mouth. You need to get in there with your fingers where the bit sits, then put pressure on it like you would if you were riding. Is it a single joint? Pressure goes not only on the bars, but can push up into the top of their mouth if they have a lower palate. Once you know for sure the bit fits the horse (and trust me, bits for them are like bras for women–it may look like it should fit, but often it will drive you bonkers), then you do the long slow work to retrain him to accept the bit and help him build new muscles to support reaching longer and lower for the bit. Lunging helps a lot, with a very loose side rein until the horse learns how to find the contact from driving up from behind–which means it’s not just exercise, it’s training on the line.

[SendenHorse]

can you get other horses on the bit? Do you have an independent seat?

[kande04]

Take a look at Philippe Karl’s work and even if you don’t want to do it exactly that way it’ll give you insights into how to teach him what you want him to do.

[MaryC]

Check saddle fit, and not just “yeah, looks ok, saddle fitter says it’s ok”. Try other saddles, see if it changes anything. Saddles that look great can be very different with a person in them… and my former giraffe agrees!

[Hawks_Nest]

You are probably going to have to go back and reteach him what the leg and the bit actually mean. In that leg doesn’t just mean go forward but step under or over and that the bit is not to be braced against. Use sideways motion (one rein stops, graduating into lateral movement) to make sure he doesn’t go up and then just work walk/halt until he can halt without bracing (make sure you do not brace either!). If he wants to back up, let him, do not force him back etc. The idea is that you teach him to give to the bit rather than brace against it, and you must be very good about releasing as soon as he gives (even if that means immediately asking again when he falls apart all over again).

[SuzieQNutter]

You are riding a horse that does not understand.

On a horse that does not understand the rules are legs means forward. Reins mean turn or stop and never use legs and reins together.

You are in danger. He is not just threatening to rear. You are actually teaching him to rear. If he goes up and over it can be fatal to the rider or worse and yes there is worse.

It is a confused horse that bucks, bolts, spins and rears. Not a naughty horse. A confused horse.

You are trying to teach an intelligent being who does not understand and who also does not understand english. He does not know what the reins mean in what you are trying to do.

The same with sidereins. You have to be taught how to use sidereins properly. It is not sidereins that kill and maim horses. It is sidereins used incorrectly on horses that kill and maim horses.

So yes sidereins is something I would use in this situation but the nuances of that is something that is as vast as learning to ride.

So take a breath and a step back. The quickest way for you to go forward from here is for you to have dressage lessons on a school master and for him to have lessons with someone who can teach him.

The slower way is also doable and entails you learnig in person from an extremely good instructor.

IMHO This is something that has to be learned in person. Yes read books. Watch videos. Read and ask on forums but find yourself an exoerienced instructor you want to emulate. As your horse is unable to read and watch videos and foes not have the desire to want to yet and needs someone who can teach him in a language he does understand.

[sortofbyx]

Oh, your horse and mine must have been reading the same book! I agree with everyone who said lateral work… We spiral in, spiral out, shoulders in, leg yield, serpentine… Very seldom is he actually going straight. We take a lot of time in the warm-up inching in to contact. You can’t just pick him up suddenly or he will hollow out. And even still, as a previous poster mentioned, sometimes you just have to wait. He has built my strength up SO much because some rides I have to just be strong enough to stay quiet and wait for him to find where I want him to be. He is a short necked, short backed horse and bracing is quite easy for him to do. Good luck, and feel free to message if you’d like to chat more! We really do need a support group. :lol:

[Mallard]

Do you have a competent trainer/coach?
How does he go if someone else rides him?

What kind of bit? Bridle?
Are you sure the saddle fits? get a qualified saddler out to check the fit.

[tbchick84]

Sounds like he was in the hands of bad hands at some point in his life. I would suggest doing in hand work with him. I don’t mean long line or longing. In hand work as in, stand at his shoulder and operate the reins as if you were riding him. It will go a long way toward re-educating him to contact without the fear of being sent conflicting messages from your legs or seat. There a few good books on it. The only one I know is out of print, but it’s called “Right From the Start”

[merrygoround]

Is this just a problem fo you, or for anyone who rides him? Are you working with a trainer.?

Horses like this take a long slow sympathetic approach, while working with side or vienna reins will help, you still sooner or later must get on. It is not a matter of setting the hand and sending forward, it is a matter of asking softly and quietly when the horse is forward and engaged enough to give on his own,

[seabreeze]

My current OTTB had similar contact issues when I first got him. Make sure you work with a competent, PATIENT trainer. This just can’t be rushed. Three years later and a bit and bridle combo that makes him happy (eggbutt mullen mouth with a Micklem…everything possible to eliminate “noise” in the mouth), and he’s finally getting the idea. Yes, three years. But it takes as long as it takes.

[J-Lu]

[QUOTE=emilyzwz;8940173]
*Long post

Ok I feel like I’m at my wits’ end. A little bit history about my horse-bought him at 10 years old last year and he was practically unbroke on the flat. He spent his previous 10 years as a foxhunter but we’re hoping to do eventing. He jumps good but dressage has been our biggest enemy.

Our problem, to simplify, is that he does not take the contact at all. He happily walks in a loose rein but as soon as I collect a little bit of reins, the forward motion stop and all the energy goes up. Now we’ve tried to get him to go forward after his head goes up see if we can push him into the contact, instead he just goes faster and faster with his head up in the air and his back hollow. At this point, we’re at a place that he can trot ok on a minimal contact but if I touch his face a little more he goes back into that hollow frame. However, as soon as we try to canter, oh boy he first ignores my hands and seat, hollows up, and start running around like a crazy person. Also he gets very strong at the canter that it felt almost impossible to get through to him. If I do increase the contact in the canter, he gets mad mad mad and starts his tossing, spinning and threatens to rear and will bulge out here and there to distract you from the contact problem.

I have lunged him in side reins, checked all possible vetting issues, and occasionally he is able to do one or two nice canter transitions, but the rest of the time he either tosses his head up, or he just trots faster and faster-almost seems like he just can’t put softness and canter transition together in his mind???

Has anyone had these issues and how did you solve it?[/QUOTE]

Having not read all of the replies, I respectfully suggest a spinal imaging exam. I rode a Rubistein mare with all of the issues you mention and she was eventually diagnosed with back issues. She wasn’t being a jerk, she hurt. She eventally had a good career as a broodmare, but we’ll see if she passed her issues to her offspring. I would not have bred her but her offspring seem to be quite nice.

[luvmydutch]

When he resists, do you pull harder or do you supple his poll and neck? What work are you doing with him to supple his poll, neck, shoulders, hindquarters? How does he take to your inside leg?

What is your correction to show the horse that going too fast isn’t what you were asking?

What is your correction for resistance to the contact?

Does the horse leg yield? Turn on the forehand?

[LilyandBaron]

I’ve ridden horses that were fox hunted, and not true of all, but OMG - some of the people do NOT know how to ride. I rode one horse that was used in a lesson barn two days a week, and once a week fox hunted. The owner literally looked like one of the old hunt prints before we learned about forward seat, and would lean back over every fence. And this was not effective like it can be for steeplechase jocks! Lol. While I agree with others’ questions about your riding on other horses and other riders on this horse, as well as saddle fit and other physical issues that could be a problem - I can also see if the horse had a fox hunter who had more bravery than riding skills, how the horse would have developed a LOT of defense mechanisms.

If that’s the case, it is going to be a long road to fix it, requiring a lot of patience. I love a French-trained clinician I’ve worked with, and have seen him seen working with riders from my TL to GP. He uses haunches out on the circle to get the horse to accept contact, and just waits it out. Don’t have frozen fingers, don’t seesaw but invite the horse onto the bit by using haunches out into the reins that you can vibrate or whatever to let the horse know what you want. Don’t use a ton of “movements” to try and achieve it - it just takes patience and timing.

This clinician spelled out the progression - horse must be on contact consistently in all three gaits, then you can ask them to stay on the bit in changes of direction, then on the bit in transitions within the gaits, then on the bit in transitions between the gaits, then in the lateral work. If the horse won’t accept and stay on contact in the walk, don’t use “tricks” to get them there, which I’ve seen so many trainers do! Just be patient, ride correctly and use haunches out to invite them into the contact.

Good luck!!!

[AppendixQHLover]

My first questions are: Have you had the horse vetted to make sure there is no physical reason why he is responding like that? Have his teeth been checked? Has he been chiro’d? Does his saddle fit properly?

[emilyzwz]

[QUOTE=merrygoround;8940929]
Is this just a problem fo you, or for anyone who rides him? Are you working with a trainer.?

Horses like this take a long slow sympathetic approach, while working with side or vienna reins will help, you still sooner or later must get on. It is not a matter of setting the hand and sending forward, it is a matter of asking softly and quietly when the horse is forward and engaged enough to give on his own,[/QUOTE]

He does the same thing when my trainer is riding him as well. We’ve gone around the area with multiple dressage trainers and honestly many of them didn’t seem to understand him either.