[QUOTE=betonbill;7217063]
Ted Yoho is [edit] having way too much fun disrupting the entire government to pay much attention to a skinny horse.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. I’m hoping the reporter is looking forward to sticking it to him.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;7217088]
Exactly. I have a very senior boarder, and yes,I baby him. If he’s dropping too much food, he gets his teeth checked (every time, I’ve been right on, several loose teeth and hooks). He gets very well soaked feed with hay cubes, and they have to be mixed together to prevent choke. He needs a blanket under 45 and a sheet if its raining and under 55. The older he gets, the more blanketing he needs.
You have to really pay attention with the old guys.[/QUOTE]
Exactly there is a reason he has lived to see almost 32 even with some fairly serious chronic issues.
All they are offering is paramount to an elephant grave yard. A place to let them wander around until they die and someone plops a tree on top of them. As if that is what they yearned for.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;7217088]
Exactly. I have a very senior boarder, and yes,I baby him. If he’s dropping too much food, he gets his teeth checked (every time, I’ve been right on, several loose teeth and hooks). He gets very well soaked feed with hay cubes, and they have to be mixed together to prevent choke. He needs a blanket under 45 and a sheet if its raining and under 55. The older he gets, the more blanketing he needs.
You have to really pay attention with the old guys.[/QUOTE]
My 33 year old foster, last summer:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3861477147526&set=a.3861427226278.149018.1596365106&type=3&theater
She pretty much looks the same at 33. I hate the “old horse” excuse. She gets shuttered up whenever she pleases - which is when it’s cold, when it’s hot, when it’s buggy…the princess tells me when, an d I obey :).
I have brought this up again on my page on FB, and getting some response. Also PMs to certain professionals - doesn’t hurt to ask.
Hundredacres - your girl looks so happy.
Lynnwood, I think you have it pegged precisely. Hoping someone can convince them to let him go.
OP, Are there registration papers that belong to Max? When you gave him to the former student, did money or papers change hands? When he was abandoned and you were made aware of his situation well after the fact, was there any time at which you could claim that Mill Creek has the horse under false pretences, i.e., they have stolen property? I could be way off base here, but the fact that you are unable to retrieve Max from this nightmare has me thinking way outside the box.
Just noticed - did anyone read this? On this page, http://www.millcreekfarm.org/mission.html.
They don’t accept horses from private owners?!? Doesn’t sound to me as if their “mission” should have included Max…?
Also seem to be several mares in foal?
I really hadn’t spent time on their website, and you certainly want to appreciate what they’re doing. But for this episode, and then the photos on their site - (are those abuse cases, or horses who have been there?) - you think everything is great.
We provide lifetime care to horses seized by law enforcement agencies, rescued by the SPCA or humane societies, horses retired from government service such as police patrol or state and federal parks, and unwanted horses that are destined for slaughter.
(We do not accept horses from private owners.)
Have taken several shots of their website, too, just in case.
CVPeg I guess Max qualified because he was "technically " abandoned via unpaid board.
Although not technically since he was assumed by the BO.
No registration papers changed hands. We never aquired Max’s Jockey Club papers. We knew who he was via tattoo but never retrieved his physical papers.
The only paper work that changed hands was the contract between the former student and Naples Riding Academy.
By the time I was made aware of the horses abandonment and transfer to Mill Creek he had already been signed over to them and there for a few weeks.
[QUOTE=CVPeg;7217526]
Just noticed - did anyone read this? On this page, http://www.millcreekfarm.org/mission.html.
They don’t accept horses from private owners?!? Doesn’t sound to me as if their “mission” should have included Max…?
Also seem to be several mares in foal?
I really hadn’t spent time on their website, and you certainly want to appreciate what they’re doing. But for this episode, and then the photos on their site - (are those abuse cases, or horses who have been there?) - you think everything is great.
Have taken several shots of their website, too, just in case.[/QUOTE]
I believe when they started up they offered a retirement home for individual owners. I think they charged an up front one-time fee of somewhere between $3000 to $5000 and then they assumed care of the horse.
Somewhere along the line they shifted to service horses and now abandoned horse stuff and that’s when their population probably increased significantly.
I knew of several vet students that went out and did some work for them pro bono, including one enucleation. Don’t know if anyone still does this.
My email to Vet and Vet’s response
Hi , A number of people are very concerned about Max at Mill Creek. A prior owner (who had a return clause in her sales agreement) only found out about his abandonement and subsequent retirement at Mill Creek a few weeks after his arrival there. She was devasted when she saw the picture of Max after 12 weeks at MC. Perhaps pictures lie?? He looks to me to have lost more than 50#s and to be in a less than 3 Henneke scale condition.
She has been trying to get Mill Creek to consider alternative management more in line with what Max has been used to and has run into the perverbial stone wall.
She was informed that Max was removed from his Andriosis meds, Red Cell which he had been on for a long time and some coat supplement and/or other vitamins. Max was used to stall during hot days and pasture at night. She is not a controlling former owner who abandoned her horse and now wants him back. She is a prior owner seeing her horse deteriorate more rapidly than seems necessary. She doesn’t want her old horse suffering.
This belief is held by a number of experienced horse owners including myself with years of experience in senior care and rehab.
Could it be that Max has some heretofore undiscovered major medical issue? or could it be that Max is not responding well to his change in management and something needs to change for him to live and thrive.
A neglect/cruelty investigation was requested, only after stonewalling from Mill Creek’s owner. Now many people have been asked to look into this case.
I thank you in advance for being open to trying more things to help Max.
Response from Mill Creek’s Vet:
I am glad to tell you that you have been severely misinformed about the handling of this case. Max has lost approximately 50lbs since arriving at Mill Creek Farm but this is farm from the whole story. Max was evaluated by me upon entering Mill Creek Farm by me as are all the horses that come on the property. At this time he was already underweight but our main concern was chronic wounds on his legs that had resulted in a cellulitis. He showed no signs of heart or lung issues and also had rain rot and scratches in multiple location. He also had some behavioral issues such as weaving, cribbing and pacing which many times are associated with horses that have been stalled and bored for too much of their lives. We discussed his previous treatment with one AC, which according to the person whom last had possession of the horse never produced any results and red cell as well as his coat supplement. It should be noted that his coat was not in good quality when he arrived. The plan we formulated for max was to place him in a pasture with grass that also had a large amount of shade available for him and to place water in the shade so on warm days he would not be stressed. He also was monitored for any signs of hyperthermia. He also needed to be treated for cellulitis which was secondary to his chronic wounds. The feed he was placed on is a high quality complete senior feed with balanced vitamins and minerals and digestive aids, he was started at recommended maintenance to get adequate vitamins and minerals. He is now receiving 10lbs twice a day which is larger than the amount necessary for him to get the adequate amounts of vitamins and minerals from the complete feed. We decided to wait and see if his behavior would improve being in a pasture with another horse for company. This is the program Max has been on since arriving although feed began at a lower amount and was quickly raised as a result of his weight loss.
His former owner was not stone walled by the sheriff. The sheriff responded as he would to any complaint by visiting the property. On finding the horse was under veterinary care he contacted me to re-evaluate the situation and take the supplements into consideration again as well as determine if there would be a benefit to moving the horse to a location where he would be stalled. I re-evaluated max, observing him for a 30 minute period of time in his environment, performing a physical exam and performing blood work and fecal exam. The owners and I discussed his current therapy and feed situation. My evaluation was that Max had settled down significantly. He no longer paces and was grazing contently when I arrived, he has never shown any signs of diarrhea and had well formed and digested fecal balls. His wounds had healed well although his feet still show signs of chronic abscess formation (present on his arrival and will take time to grow out) and poor quality growth. His heart and lungs again auscultated normally, his gum color was pink and he had a normal capillary refill time and no signs of dehydration. I approximated that he lost 50lbs. The owners confirmed that max has become much more settled in although it was a significant adjustment for him and that he still occasionally weaves and cribs though it is no longer a significant portion of his day. The blood work confirmed that max is not anemic (this would be the reason for supplementing with red cell), and has no organ disfunction that is detectable at this time. His fecal test was negative. We discussed moving the location that max was being fed and wetting the food to prevent dropping of feed and any accidental sand ingestion although he has no signs of that at this time. I discussed all of my findings with the sheriff and we agreed that since his behavior has improved so significantly, he shows no signs of distress currently and a cause for his weight loss for health reasons could not be identified that we would make the feed change and re-evaluate in 3 weeks unless he continued to rapidly deteriorate.
That examination was last week. Since then the changes to his feed were made and he was fitted with a cribbing collar. Pete is giving him one AC despite Max not showing signs since he arrived at mill creek at the previous owners request. I stand by my decision to not have the horse on supplements which are provided in his feed because over supplementation can cause damage on its own. There are many issues such as cancer, atypical cushings disease and other metabolic problems that could be present in Max and are more likely because he is a 32 year old horse causing his weight loss issues that would not be detectable with the labs performed. He is currently being monitored for progress in either direction and appears to be very content and comfortable in his situation. We all hope that the weight loss was a result the increased exercise of adjusting to his current environment and the pacing which he was doing. Since this behavior has decreased and his feeding has continued to be changed in response to his current state he will continued to be monitored by myself and the sheriff. If he does continue to deteriorate despite these changes further diagnostics will be performed and if his weight loss continues without us being able to identify a cause which can happen in these situations he will not be allowed to starve to death as has been suggested by his previous owner. I see no reason that keeping him stalled would improve his situation as previously stated his behavior has continued to improve in his current situation and would likely revert if he was again stalled for the majority of a day.
I hope at least I have calmed your fears that nobody is listening or attempting to determine Max’s weight loss issues, even if you disagree with his current location.
You don’t need a vet degree to read ulcers into that description. Seems like the obvious place to start.
My email to UC Davis re: Max and their response - I am so impressed!!
Sent to CSonder at UC Davis:
Subject: need your assistance regarding starving horse evaluation
Hi, I am impressed with UC Davis studies on starved horses and refeeding syndrome.
I have run across a situation that I need an expert opinion.
A horse named Max was turned over to a retirement home. I am enclosing pictures on arrival and 12 weeks later. A report was made to local Sheriff’s office ( they handle animal welfare) and an officer determined that the horse has not lost more than 50 lbs. and is a 3 on the Henneke scale.(?!?!)
History: horse has Andriosis, has been a cribber for 15+ yrs and has only nubs for teeth. He is 32 yo TB, obviously in good condition for his age and bright eyed. 12 weeks later ( a week+ ago) the second picture was taken. No known medical issues which would cause this weight/condition change in this period of time. Obviosuly putting this horse out in pasture, taking away his medications is not working. He is a slow eater as well.
Can someone make a very general evaluation? weight loss between pictures ? possible Henneke scale evaluation. If this contiues - what will happen to him organ wise? In his apparent condition…what ‘re-feeding’ program would you recommend? I know that pictures usually do not show reality…I have not seen this horse in person but if he looks this bad in pictures…I really fear that he is suffering a not so slow painful death process. Frankly, I’d rather see him properly care for or PTS.
The retirement home has taken the stance that quote: horses come here to die’;… many people including a prior owner feel that it is cruel abuse to deprive horse of ‘proper medical care’ and in fact state law requires it. If this horse were with a private owner, I am sure it would be seized on a neglect case situation but given that 90% +/- of the retirement horses have a marvelous place to retire and don’t require special care…the local Sheriff’s office may be biased about the situation. Apparently, according to Deputy his bloodwork came back without problems…though no report has been given.
Thank you on behalf of Max,
RESPONSE FROM UC DAVIS:
Thank you for your inquiry on Max. The comments below are my humble opinion on Max’s condition without the benefit of a physical examination or investigation of his environment.
The Henneke scale involves palpation of the fat pads or lack thereof, so a visual estimate is not accurate alone. I do believe he has lost weight based on the two photographs and suspect that he would fall into the 2 range but again, not a fair assessment without physical exam. If his labs were normal and he is not running a fever of off feed, then I suspect he may not be able to chew and process feed. The lack of incisors make pasture grass quite inaccessible. He might benefit from a gradual introduction(over a 10 day period) of soaked equine senior and rice bran. You could start him on 2lbs soaked twice a day and wean him up by a pound (am and pm) every 3 days, until he is at 6-7 lbs equine senior soaked twice daily. You can start with ½ cup of rice bran in the Eq Sr. am and pm and leave it at that.
I would get a weight tape and measure him now- take an average of 3 measurements at heart girth. Weigh him weekly to assess gain. If he is not gaining weight by 2 weeks on the new diet, then a further veterinary investigation is warranted. Remember, a 32 year old horse is the equivalent of a 100 year old human, and it is quite possible that his gut no longer functions to absorb nutrition. In this case, humane euthanasia should be a consideration as he will develop weakness and be susceptible to the cold of winter. Calories can also be lost pacing or weaving. A blanket at night might help him from losing calories trying to stay warm.
Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.
Best,Claudia
Claudia Sonder DVM
Director Center for Equine Health
UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine
I’ve never typed this in a thread on any forum before, but: conspiracy.
[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;7219125]
I’ve never typed this in a thread on any forum before, but: conspiracy.[/QUOTE]
Conspiracy by whom?
[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;7219125]
I’ve never typed this in a thread on any forum before, but: conspiracy.[/QUOTE]
I’ve never typed this in a thread on any forum before, but: Rumplestiltskin!
What kind of comment was that, anyway? Conspiracy is just a word, if there is no explanation behind its use.
While I agree that the horse in unacceptable condition in the latest photo, the anhidrosis thing confuses me. He’s in FL, yes? And the vet says he’s been pacing and weaving? And he hasn’t overheated in his pasture environment that he’s been in for months now? He must be sweating some, no? It sounds as if he’s been on OneAC for years. Has he ever had ACTH or any other potential curative for the condition?
It sounds as if the supplements that were discontinued by the retirement farm were OneAC, a coat supp and Red Cell. Aside from possibly OneAC (although there are other treatments for anhydrosis that don’t require daily feed supplementation), none of these is essential. Both the coat supp and the Red Cell added calories, but not enough to see such a dip in condition from discontinuation. If the horse isn’t anemic (and, according to the vet, he’s not, even after 12 or so weeks off Red Cell), then continuing Red Cell is just an unnecessary expense. And, of course, the coat supp is an aesthetic product, not necessary for the health of an oldster. The senior feed he’s on should be balanced with respect to vitamins and minerals, so further supplementation of those, in the absence of proof of deficiency is unnecessary and can even prove harmful.
Yes, the horse is skinny, but it’s not because he’s not getting his supps. The vet’s explanation of increased activity and stress over relocation and routine change seems reasonable. Again, I agree that this horse’s condition in the photo is deplorable. But I’m not ready to start tying the noose. Maybe the new feeding plan the vet described will have a positive effect. At 32 years old, it doesn’t seem odd for a major change in living conditions to have an effect on the horse. For that matter, if he was given antibiotics for his cellulitis and skin infection, as Laurie said, he’s an excellent candidate for ulcers, or at least a disruption in his intestinal flora. Perhaps you can provide a course of probiotics and request that he be treated for ulcers, if not examined/scoped and then treated? Granted, you might have to absorb the expense to get it done, but it may well be worth it.
Can someone go back and take new photographs for you in a few weeks to see how he’s adjusting? I can’t imagine the retirement farm owners will be too keen on letting anyone with a camera near this horse now, but maybe…
Its like the sheriff, vet, and other locals are covering for Mill Creek…finding ways to justify what, in essence, appears to be a starving horse.
If every other horse on the property looked great, I might not think so, but they don’t.
Rumplestilskin. LOL. Bonus points for making me laugh!
[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;7219175]
Its like the sheriff, vet, and other locals are covering for Mill Creek…finding ways to justify what, in essence, appears to be a starving horse.
If every other horse on the property looked great, I might not think so, but they don’t.
Rumplestilskin. LOL. Bonus points for making me laugh![/QUOTE]
I don’t think it’s a conspiracy, I think it’s group denial. The butterflies and rainbows syndrome…horses should be FREE to roam in green pastures.
Take a look at this one at Mill Creek. Go all the way to the bottom of the page and click on Milo. Tell me what you think. Max isn’t the only horse in trouble, Milo
“…he is able to get around by hopping on three legs.”
I agree with UC Davis. He’s a 2 at best. If the horses are all out in a field, how do they make sure Max is the one getting his “10 lbs of feed”. I wonder if Max leaves little cigar shaped grass quids as he grazes.
[QUOTE=JackieBlue;7219173]
The senior feed he’s on should be balanced with respect to vitamins and minerals, so further supplementation of those, in the absence of proof of deficiency is unnecessary and can even prove harmful.[/QUOTE]
From what has been posted it is doubtful that he is getting his senior feed in a quantity that will provide him with anything, unless Max suddenly changed his eating habit to actually eat his grain before someone else eats it for him.
Coat supplements provide a good fat source, which on a hard to keep weight on horse is a good thing.
I would love it if someone in the know would comment about the rain rot and leg issues that the vet insists are the issue.
Took a good look at their webpage yesterday. To generalize, their stated purpose is for rescue/abuse victims to be “retired” there. So when you think about it, many of the photos could be - supposedly - newcomers.
But I also am not convinced that all is wine and roses. They have become used to the shock and horror of new arrivals, then can’t wrap their heads around what should be an acceptable outcome to another kind of new arrival - Max. Everyone else is probably thriving after no hay/feed/care. Max had that in spades - a specialized care/routine, and he is not thriving there. Period.
The other variable I see is a location that isn’t convenient to many. Easy to spruce up for the Saturday visits, and the 2 days a week they ask volunteers to groom.
It looks like they have had many success stories. Abused/malnourished horses + wide open pastures = vast improvement for many.
But if those associated with this facility would just let this horse go home. Now. Please.
