Horse shows, Tense back, Methocarbamol?

[Theotherrider]

If you use Methocarb or Robaxin at the shows–
Do you find the horse’s back is still less tense even after the 12 hours before, when it must be given (does the relief last in to the next day/morning)?
Does it have a build up effect, like if used on the second day, is your horse’s back more relaxed on the second day?
If you stop administering, does the tenseness return or is there some residual help remaining?
Does it affect your horses drinking (more or less consumption) water, or effect pooping (more or less, diarrhea or constipation)?

All of the above of course knowing that different horses react differently.

USEF rules say no NSAID stacking, but I did not see in Drug Guidelines anything specific to Methocarb administration combined with an NSAID. I only saw info on not administering two allowed NSAIDS at a time, though the Metho dosage and 12 hr rule was defined in this same section. Your opinion on Metho plus Flunixin? Big no??
THANKS

[findeight]

Call the USEF and ask them. It’s quick and easy plus the info you get will be correct.

Why is horse’s back “tense”? Any diagnostics?

[horsegurl]

OP-I don’t absolutely know the answers to all of your questions but I do know trainers, multiple trainers, far too many trainers unfortunately, who give it to horses every night at a horse show. It has to be given at least 12 hours prior to showtime. But if they give it every night, I question whether there is any buildup or residual? None the less, if you’re giving it at a horse show, you are certainly not alone!

[RAyers]

Long term or high dosage administration will destroy a horse’s kidneys, e.g. reasons for excessive drinking and urination. May explain why their back is still tense. Their kidneys are painful (think kidney stone pain). From what I read, you have begun to trash your horse’s kidneys. Tack on NSAID use, and I bet you are seeing toxicity.

From Prevention and Treatment of Poisoning
Camille DeClementi, in Veterinary Toxicology (Third Edition), 2018

“For this reason, veterinary patients treated with injectable methocarbamol should receive IV fluid support and have kidney values monitored if renal impairment is suspected or is a possible outcome of their clinical signs. For example, patients with prolonged tremors or seizures can release muscular myoglobin. The myoglobin is excreted by the kidneys and can lead to renal damage (Volmer, 2004).”

[SugarCubes]

I have an older hunter with kissing spines who would get a little back sore after showing so my vet recommended Robaxin on top of his usual dose of Equioxx during horse shows. Since we’ve been following this protocol (4-5 years) he’s stayed comfortable and we haven’t had any of the soreness issues.

I find the once a day administration at shows prevents him from getting sore, but I would imagine if we were dealing with some soreness issues to begin with, he’d need to go back on the 2x/daily dose. So, in your case, if you are using it as prevention I would imagine you’ll have good effects just using it 12hrs before showing.

ETA - OP, I’ve also had great luck rubbing down my horse’s back with Sore no More and then throwing his BOT sheet on him…this on top of the meds seems to keep him very happy

[IPEsq]

It doesn’t have a very long half life, so no, it doesn’t really build up in the body. You cannot give it on top of an NSAID at a USEF rated show–this is expressly forbidden in the D&M guide. Although mehocarbamol is not an NSAID, the guide says something like USEF considers it to be an NSAID for the purposes of the no-2-NSAIDs rule. But the biggest problem for showing is that the real therapeutic dose of methocarbamol is much higher mg/kg than the USEF limit, and most vets prescribe it to be given at least a couple weeks at a time. That said, I have found it to help prevent some soreness in certain horses given just for shows and at the legal doses as far as comparing comfort level with that medication versus an NSAID.

[Theotherrider]

@IPEsq

It doesn’t have a very long half life, so no, it doesn’t really build up in the body. You cannot give it on top of an NSAID at a USEF rated show–this is expressly forbidden in the D&M guide. Although mehocarbamol is not an NSAID, the guide says something like USEF considers it to be an NSAID for the purposes of the no-2-NSAIDs rule. But the biggest problem for showing is that the real therapeutic dose of methocarbamol is much higher mg/kg than the USEF limit, and most vets prescribe it to be given at least a couple weeks at a time. That said, I have found it to help prevent some soreness in certain horses given just for shows and at the legal doses as far as comparing comfort level with that medication versus an NSAID.

Perfect! Thanks for the info.

[IPEsq]

Sorry I’ve been corrected. You can give it with an NSAID—I must have misread the rule. But like RAyers said above you may not want to.

[LessSugarMoreSpice]

@RAyers

Long term or high dosage administration will destroy a horse’s kidneys, e.g. reasons for excessive drinking and urination. May explain why their back is still tense. Their kidneys are painful (think kidney stone pain). From what I read, you have begun to trash your horse’s kidneys. Tack on NSAID use, and I bet you are seeing toxicity.

From Prevention and Treatment of Poisoning
Camille DeClementi, in Veterinary Toxicology (Third Edition), 2018

“For this reason, veterinary patients treated with injectable methocarbamol should receive IV fluid support and have kidney values monitored if renal impairment is suspected or is a possible outcome of their clinical signs. For example, patients with prolonged tremors or seizures can release muscular myoglobin. The myoglobin is excreted by the kidneys and can lead to renal damage (Volmer, 2004).”

For reference, I show regularly on the AA circuit and would completely disregard this comment. You are not going to “trash” your horse’s kidneys by making them confortable at horse shows. Methacarbamol is essentially non-toxic and I do not believe there are any studies which show adverse affects in long term use, so I am not sure what the above poster is referencing.

And you can ABSOLUTELY stack Methacarbamol and an NSAID such as Bute or Banamine. Methacarbamol has a very short half life, therefore it will not “build up” in a horse’s system. Both of my horses receive Methacarbamol every evening before showing and one gets banamine and the other bute.

I have answered your questions here:

Do you find the horse’s back is still less tense even after the 12 hours before, when it must be given (does the relief last in to the next day/morning)? Yes generally 12-24 hours
Does it have a build up effect, like if used on the second day, is your horse’s back more relaxed on the second day? Short short half life, so no build up. If you want your horse comfortable the second day, you need to administer on the second day.
If you stop administering, does the tenseness return or is there some residual help remaining? Depends on the horse and its workload. I only give during shows when the horse is jumping and working more than usual which can cause body soreness.
Does it affect your horses drinking (more or less consumption) water, or effect pooping (more or less, diarrhea or constipation)? Not at all.

[RAyers]

I didn’t know that being a rider on the AA circuit qualifies you to make your assessment!

I generally go with experts in the field. The actual half life of methocobamol is 6 hours. (2007 􏰂 Vol. 53 􏰂 AAEP PROCEEDINGS).

I already referenced a veterinary journal for the mode of toxicity.

From 2010 ô°€ Vol. 56 ô°€ AAEP PROCEEDINGS; “Methocarbamol is a skeletal muscle relaxant with a selective action on the internuncial neurons of the spinal cord. Polysynaptic reflex pathways are blocked without affecting the striated muscle con- tractile mechanisms, nerve fibers, or the motor end- plate. Signs of behavior modification or ataxia have not been observed at the allowed dosage of 5 mg/lb.19 Methocarbamol is permitted to be admin- istered PO or IV, with the maximum permissible plasma concentration set at 4.0 ô°‚g/ml. This trans- lates to 50 ml of the injectable solution or 5 g of the oral tablets or powder twice daily for a 1000-lb horse. This drug is frequently used by Hunter and Western Pleasure trainers to “take the edge off” the horses, despite constituting an illegal use of medi- cation that violates the tenets of sportsmanship and fair play.”

If the drug is given IV, the amount of PEG-300 can destroy kidneys. From the manufacturer of methocarbamol: “ROBAXIN-V Injectable is known to have increased pre-existing acidosis and urea retention in humans with renal impairment.” The PEG-300 builds up in the kidneys where the breakdown products of the methocarbamol. Given this drug has never been approved for veterinary medicine other than for surgical use, this is a key component that many vets fail to realize.

And, if the horse remains relaxed after 12 hours, then the drug is still present and therefore has a much longer half life than stated. Of course 1/2 life only refers to the time it takes to reduce the plasma level 50%.

And, yes, I am a medical research scientist who is employed in a large research hospital who is also connected to a large veterinary hospital.

[LessSugarMoreSpice]

@RAyers

I didn’t know that being a rider on the AA circuit qualifies you to make your assessment!

I generally go with experts in the field. The actual half life of methocobamol is 6 hours. (2007 􏰂 Vol. 53 􏰂 AAEP PROCEEDINGS).

I already referenced a veterinary journal for the mode of toxicity.

From 2010 ô°€ Vol. 56 ô°€ AAEP PROCEEDINGS; “Methocarbamol is a skeletal muscle relaxant with a selective action on the internuncial neurons of the spinal cord. Polysynaptic reflex pathways are blocked without affecting the striated muscle con- tractile mechanisms, nerve fibers, or the motor end- plate. Signs of behavior modification or ataxia have not been observed at the allowed dosage of 5 mg/lb.19 Methocarbamol is permitted to be admin- istered PO or IV, with the maximum permissible plasma concentration set at 4.0 ô°‚g/ml. This trans- lates to 50 ml of the injectable solution or 5 g of the oral tablets or powder twice daily for a 1000-lb horse. This drug is frequently used by Hunter and Western Pleasure trainers to “take the edge off” the horses, despite constituting an illegal use of medi- cation that violates the tenets of sportsmanship and fair play.”

If the drug is given IV, the amount of PEG-300 can destroy kidneys. From the manufacturer of methocarbamol: “ROBAXIN-V Injectable is known to have increased pre-existing acidosis and urea retention in humans with renal impairment.” The PEG-300 builds up in the kidneys where the breakdown products of the methocarbamol. Given this drug has never been approved for veterinary medicine other than for surgical use, this is a key component that many vets fail to realize.

And, if the horse remains relaxed after 12 hours, then the drug is still present and therefore has a much longer half life than stated. Of course 1/2 life only refers to the time it takes to reduce the plasma level 50%.

And, yes, I am a medical research scientist who is employed in a large research hospital who is also connected to a large veterinary hospital.

UGH, the nastiness and snark are absolutely not necessary. The poster stated she was showing, hence the relevence of my show and equine experience. As well as the fact that one can infer those showing at a high level generally work closely with vets, farriers, chiropractors, etc. Plus, I feel as though you are giving bad information. There is extremenly limited pharmacokinetic data of methacarbamol use in animals, and I too have read studies, including information provided from my vet https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9109959

It does not matter if you are the greatest scientist in the world if you are referencing nonapplicable items to simply scare the OP because you do not agree with giving robaxin at shows. You are referencing administering high doses via IV!!! That is not applicable here.

Not commenting further, OP, if you would like to message me, I can provide you with further details my vet has provided. As well as a couple tips I have learned along the way! Good luck showing!

[findeight]

RAYers was not being snarky or rude, he just disagreed and cited some research. It is a discussion board and any poster can expect differing opinions and discussion, that’s what we do here.

[LessSugarMoreSpice]

@findeight

RAYers was not being snarky or rude, he just disagreed and cited some research. It is a discussion board and any poster can expect differing opinions and discussion,

I absolutely agree with you! however, the polite way to express disagreement is to state “I disagree with XXX and here is why” not “I didn’t know that being a rider on the AA circuit qualifies you to make your assessment! I generally go with experts in the field” THAT is snark. A lot can be lost in translation via online forums, I generally try to stick to the rule of if I wouldn’t say it exactly that way to someone I just met in person, then I won’t say it a certain way online. Unfortunately most others posting on these types of forums do not have the same mentality.

Sorry OP for us getting off topic