Horse suddenly kicking out

[Kayla_3]

Hey all,
For some background info I lease a 9 year old thoroughbred gelding. He did not race but was race trained. He’s 16.3hh and I’ve been leasing him for a few months now.

I started riding this boy a few months ago he is a wonderful horse and we’re getting ready to go into his first show season. A few weeks ago he started kicking out/bucking. Some days are a lot worse than others he will do this in all gaits walk trot or canter. Recently he will be good for the first 20 minutes of just trotting around no kicking out whatsoever then we will have a break and when I ask him to go forward he will kick out and protest I make him move forwards so he knows he can’t get away with it but this is something he never used to do.

It’s not something he will just do with me, he does this for other riders too. We’ve had saddle fitter out and tried different saddles he still has the same behaviour. We haven’t had a chiropractor out for him yet but he doesn’t seem to be back sore and isn’t irritated at all by me rubbing my hands down his back firmly. We also have him on omeprazole in the case of ulcers. We did not scope him as the owner wanted to try treatment and see if there was improvement which there wasn’t. We also tried feeding alpha before riding to see if there would be an improvement. The first time there was definitely an improvement he still was kicking out but a lot less the second time there seemed no improvement. We gave him some time off and he came back still doing the same. We also tried a few days of bute if he’s in pain somewhere but still same behaviour

He doesn’t do this behaviour on the lunge line at all

Im wondering what I should do next and if you would think this is more behavioural or pain related. Please keep in mind I do not own this horse I only half lease him.

[OverandOnward]

@Kayla_3

Hey all,
For some background info I lease a 9 year old thoroughbred gelding. He did not race but was race trained. He’s 16.3hh and I’ve been leasing him for a few months now.

I started riding this boy a few months ago he is a wonderful horse and we’re getting ready to go into his first show season. A few weeks ago he started kicking out/bucking. Some days are a lot worse than others he will do this in all gaits walk trot or canter. Recently he will be good for the first 20 minutes of just trotting around no kicking out whatsoever then we will have a break and when I ask him to go forward he will kick out and protest I make him move forwards so he knows he can’t get away with it but this is something he never used to do.

It’s not something he will just do with me, he does this for other riders too. We’ve had saddle fitter out and tried different saddles he still has the same behaviour. We haven’t had a chiropractor out for him yet but he doesn’t seem to be back sore and isn’t irritated at all by me rubbing my hands down his back firmly. We also have him on omeprazole in the case of ulcers. We did not scope him as the owner wanted to try treatment and see if there was improvement which there wasn’t. We also tried feeding alpha before riding to see if there would be an improvement. The first time there was definitely an improvement he still was kicking out but a lot less the second time there seemed no improvement. We gave him some time off and he came back still doing the same. We also tried a few days of bute if he’s in pain somewhere but still same behaviour

He doesn’t do this behaviour on the lunge line at all

Im wondering what I should do next and if you would think this is more behavioural or pain related. Please keep in mind I do not own this horse I only half lease him.

Based on your description, his behavior indicates to me that this is pain-related. From this first post, I’m not clear if the vet has seen him? You don’t say specifically.

Personal experience – I would x-ray for kissing spine or something along those lines. It’s not terribly expensive and the results are obvious to a vet who is well-versed in ks. Of course it could be something else unrelated. But if it is ks, that is what needs to be addressed in a systematic way, not hit or miss.

If the cursory exams to date aren’t providing clarity, IMO it is worth finding a vet with a lot of specific experience in this type of diagnosis and go from there. It’s ok to travel beyond the usual neighborhood vet practice for this perspective.

When a diagnosis hasn’t shown itself clearly without a vet, beware of a plethora of self-made ‘experts’ who will assure you that a) they know what the problem is and b) they have the solution.

Especially if you are paying them for that solution, more especially if the $$ runs into the hundreds or more. I cannot tell you how many, er, people, there are out there promoting their own therapies, ‘professionally’ or otherwise. Whatever is the problem, their primary therapy is the answer.

I do believe in a good bit of homeopathic pathways, but they have less controlled data verifying their efficacy. A lot of it is anecdotal. This is a slippery slope when chasing a diagnosis. And can be expensive without yielding reliable results.

Without a vet, there are no surefire techniques to diagnose several conditions – regardless of what some people would have you believe.

It’s possible to waste a lot of time and money trying this and that without a true diagnosis. Like, an absolutely endless amount. Of time. And money. Endless. $$$

[punchy]

Hmmm…can you get a video, so you can carefully watch to see if anything sets it off? You don’t have to post it here, but to just watch yourself or share it with the vet. I saw a video once of a horse allegedly behaving badly by bucking/bolting, but if you slowed the video and watched carefully you could see that actually the horse’s stifle was giving out and the buck/bolt was a reaction to that. You might be able to narrow it down a bit to help find the problem. Kicking out when walking seems a bit weird…like a pebble in a shoe in a person.

Edit: just saw the next post—thanks for the reminder: don’t share any video with the vet since it’s not your horse.

[LCDR]

What does the horse’s owner want to do at this point? The horse needs help. Is the owner willing to go ahead with radiographs and other veterinarian recommended examinations and tests?

As the lessee, you are really caught in the middle here.

[Demerara_Stables]

It sounds like pain.

Even if you put a saddle on him that fit, if his back was already sore from an ill fitting saddle, he would need time off and body work before you could expect him to be non-reactive.

As others have said, since you’re not the owner, you need to look to your lease agreement to see what is specified there. If you’re unable to ride the horse because he’s in pain (which sounds like the case), then hopefully the agreement states that the owner will have the vet out to assess the situation.

Good luck!

[Kayla_3]

Update: the past few days I’ve ridden him and I’ve noticed a trend in his behaviour. It’s when horses are in the middle that he starts kicking out. He will be absolutely fine when everyone is on the rail but as soon as one goes into the middle he starts kicking out/bucking because he wants to be in the middle too.
From this behaviour I do believe it’s more behavioural but will continue to investigate

[fivestrideline]

Can you find a time to ride alone? If he doesn’t do it when he’s 100% alone in the ring, I’d say it’s very likely behavioral.

[Kayla_3]

So I rode him alone and so did a couple other riders and he was perfect. Didn’t kick out once and jumped a course with flying changes and he was great. However still when I ride him with other horses he’s bucking big when they’re in the middle and I don’t know how to get him out of this habit. If he doesn’t want to do something he will express it by bucking and they aren’t small bucks

[fivestrideline]

I’m assuming this is in lessons? Does your trainer have you doing anything to work through it?

Sounds like he has your number. Have you been able to work through it consistently or is this a ride ending/ride redirecting behavior? Do you get off or let him go hang out with the other horses?

Sometimes lesson horses/ponies get like this - ring sour or herd sour. This was the job of the older/more scrappy kids at the barn back in the day, to sort out the schoolies that have the riders’ number. Maybe he needs the owner or trainer to get on and remind him that it’s Work Time - does he do it for anyone else? Are you the only rider?

Just trying to get a gauge on what might be helpful to suggest.

[Kayla_3]

This is in lessons and during free rides as well. And yes I do not get off and work through it my trainer will not let me get off until I work through it. He does this for everyone that rides him including my trainer when there’s other horses around. My trainer has put many rides into him now but the thing is she rides him during the day and there’s generally no one else that rides during the day so he won’t do anything because he’s alone.

One thing I should add is he is quite herd bound. When coming into the barn and in the arena he will call to his friends, he’s gotten a lot better with it but still working on it.

[fivestrideline]

Start with the herdbound thing. IIWM I’d be looking up groundwork and exercises with that tagline, since it seems to be the core of your problem.

I’m assuming these fits aren’t true bucking fits if your trainer is having you ride through them and hasn’t pulled you off for a new lease. A head down crowhop and kick out combo can FEEL massive until you’ve had to sit a real bucking spree, so I totally get that it’s no fun and a bit intimidating! If he’s actually BUCKING, it’s time to get a new lease and a new trainer while you’re at it because no one has time for that kind of nonsense.

Has your trainer had you do anything other than try to sit it out and ignore it? Some ideas, in no way comprehensive:

• no standing in the group during the lesson. He has to stand and wait your turn as far away from the others as possible.
• make being near the other horses Hard Work. This takes some skill to do well and not disrupt everyone else, but if you can find some ways to circle and work him but let him relax away from the others