horse that cross-fires on hind end; should I buy?

[beowulf]

This is a risky project. I would only go for it if the following was true for you:

A. You could afford his upkeep in retirement if he didn’t work out
B. You would be comfortable with PTS to prevent him from ending up in a bad situation if you couldn’t do the above ^
C. You had your own place / could control his management 100%
D. You could get him on 24/7 turnout

I’m not above taking on a horse like this. I have done it in the past. Some young horses just aren’t strong enough to hold a lead undersaddle, so it isn’t always a red flag to me provided they’re sound in other areas.

However, it is risky - you are buying a horse with a physical issue - either lack of strength, or injury, or both. It’s a big gamble. It has worked out for me in the past, and it also hasn’t. We own a horse just like this, that has not been ridden in 10+ years because it didn’t work out. In his case, his difficulty cantering and holding leads persisted despite lots of L-S-D work, injections, ‘corrective’ farriery to help – but you can’t fight a horse’s innate structure, and some horses just are not built to be sound. He is happily retired and a wonderful guy, but I wouldn’t take him on again. We tried for years to get him going, and it was a real shame his body just wasn’t up to the task.

On a more positive note, sometimes it does really boil down to the horse’s management. I’ve had horses come to me with the above issue, and was pleasantly surprised how much shoeing appropriately, AND full turnout changed the strength behind for these horses… However, sometimes cross-firing or the inability to hold a lead well is a sign of stuff management can’t fix, like a suspensory or SI injury. You don’t know until you gamble or foot the bill for more x-rays yourself.

My first OTTB came to us with some major cross-firing issues. It took a year+ to resolve, but he ended up being a wonderful LL eventer for me, and then when I outgrew him, he taught my young sister the ropes up to Training. Very safe, sane, and wonderfully sound horse. He also had 80+ starts before he came to us, and was sounder than any horse I’ve owned. Unfortunately, once he hit 20 he started to go downhill fast … Cervical arthritis :no: I have wondered sometimes if all of his little difficulties (like collected canter, being very tense in dressage, the lead swaps, the lack of a true topline despite being very fit) stemmed from the CA - which I suspect was there all along, but not “bad enough” to harm his athleticism until he was just a bit older. He was PTS at 23, the CA came about hard and fast. :no:

That being said, I would clone him if I could. He was a wonderful first horse.

Good luck!

[caryledee]

I had one with some sort of pelvic issue. He swapped leads behind when I first got him and I thought it was just a matter of strengthening. I did improve the cross cantering but other issues kept popping up that we were never able to find the cause for. Many chiro appointments found nothing, SI injection helped a bit but once I started pushing him a bit he would show signs of being sore somewhere. He flexed fine and wasn’t actually lame though. It was frustrating. I eventually found him an easier job. Diagnosing pelvic issues gets expensive quick and may not have a solution. I’d pass on this guy. Sorry!

[Equisis]

I would probably pass. You need to remember that this horse has a reason for going like this- they might not have found that reason, but it’s there. You can take a gamble and hope that strengthening will help, but what is the plan if it doesn’t? Assuming this horse is getting normal turnout and is at least in somewhat regular work, he shouldn’t be so weak that he can’t hold a canter. Even if you are able to fix it with conditioning, what happens down the road? If it’s winter and you can’t work on hills, or you go on vacation, or one of you is injured- if he loses condition, will he regress back to step one?

There are so many possibilities here- neuro issues, back issues, other injuries- you are buying someone else’s problem. If the horse you see today is the horse he will be forever, will you be happy or will you regret the purchase?

[Backyardhorse_girl]

@enjoytheride

Under saddle or on the lunge line?

under saddle

[enjoytheride]

@Backyardhorse girl

under saddle

Depending on how fit the horse was and how good the riding was I could go either way. Some horses that travel with high heads dropped backs and trailing hocks are prone to swapping behind. Good riding can fix this, it’s also an indication of hock issues. So it would depend for me on the vetting, how cheap the horse was, and if I felt his riding and training was involved.

[skipollo]

Sound healthy horses are enough of a problem. Don’t buy one that already has an issue. There will always be another horse.

[whbar158]

I knew 2 chronic swap behind horses one never really had much in the way of diagnostics done and it never resolved, it was in part a strength as when she was out of shape it was worse but it never went away.

The other I think it may have been resolved but I don’t know as I have lost touch with the horse a bit. But I know he’s been doing some eventing so I would guess its been worked on? He had tons of diagnostics, was a hunter, sold cheap to a kid because he couldn’t hold his lead. I rode him a bit and despite some work, and all the work ups something felt “off” about him he felt a bit neuro to me but they said he passed the neuro tests so…not sure but I will say I didn’t 100% trust that he was right. Strength would help some but it wasn’t really resolved either. This makes me think about asking if they ever figured it out.

That said I would keep looking, if you really like the horse and he’s still around in a little while then maybe it would be worth seeing what they have checked out exactly and how much effort they have put into fixing it. I know when I was looking last year I would have passed because of the ones I have known and I just wouldn’t be comfortable with it.

[ACMEeventing]

@Backyardhorse girl

under saddle

He doesn’t do it on the lunge at all?

You’ve had some really great advice from both sides of the aisle. Bottom line, there is no perfect horse. You pick the one that puts sparkles in your eyes and whose issues are something you are okay with,

No one on an internet board can tell you if this issue will be resolved or not, we can just share our own experiences.

Have you looked at many horses and this one is your favorite? Or is it the first horse you saw?

I will say, if it is only an issue under saddle, then I would be WAY more inclined to take a chance if everything else ticks your boxes and you’re willing to play the long game.

[OverandOnward]

Really, this decision first has to be about you, what you want to be doing over the next year, and the next, with a new-to-you horse. It’s about consequences to you. If this horse isn’t going to be satisfying to ride in your chosen activities, if it will end up in a lot of frustration, don’t take this one on. If you aren’t fussed how things end up, and are ok to deal with disappointment if the horse ultimately doesn’t work out (while protecting the horse), then that’s another possible road.

All that said … a famous lead-swapper was Karen O’Connor’s ride Prince Panache. She has talked about how he would crossfire and/or swap leads in front of jumps, and never trained out of it no matter what they tried. Prince Panache won Kentucky and the individual and team bronze medal at the 2000 Olympics in Australia. That course was considered one of the toughest ever built, and swapping didn’t stop Prince Panache from managing it well. Don’t know if he swapped and crossfired on the flat, though.
https://useventing.com/news-media/ne…he-1984-2016-1

This link is at Kentucky, show jumping round. The hind legs aren’t very clear at most of the jumps, but at the final white jump (after the triple combination) the horse clearly swaps leads a stride or two out (front & back). But he was clear over it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkj5JSNpvHo

Maybe you can find a show-jumping friend to give this horse a good landing?

[4horses]

If you want to buy him see if you can take him to the university and get a nuclear scan done. It should tell you if there’s some bone related issue (wobbles, cervical arthritis, hock arthritis, etc). If you have a diagnosis, you can start on a treatment. Expensive, yes. But at least you know exactly what you’re dealing with, without any guess work. If he scans clear, it could be soft tissue related, poor riding, or lack of conditioning.

And have a plan if he doesn’t work out. But this could be as simple as hocks needing injections.

[mvp]

@Redlei44

A jumper can cross canter to the jumps all it wants, as long as the jumps stay up and you don’t mind the ride. If there is truly no pain/welfare reason for the swap, it’s not disqualifying,

That only works out if you want to do straight show jumping, though. Since you want to do dressage, I say pass.

But It’s hard to see a distance on a jumper who switches leads and cross canters coming down to a fence.

[mvp]

OP, how old is he and does he do this when he’s loose or on the lunge?

I wouldn’t buy a horse who did this loose if he were 3 or older and not obviously weak because he was in poor condition. IMO, a long, weak back or trailing hind end (or worse) are the things that make cross cantering easy for a horse. And you will spend your whole riding career (on any horse) trying to building his postural strength. To me, you are starting way behind what everyone else has if they bought a horse who finds it easiest to stay on one lead and, preferably, do a clean flying change when he wants to change his balance.

If this is a weak 2 year old whose conformation wasn’t bad? I’d be more curious and I’d dig into his history and all that vetting they did before I rejected him.

[whbar158]

Lots of horses swap in front of jumps especially up front or a full swap, while not ideal is much more manageable, many times these are just sensitive horses that have an easy swap or would rather buy a little space to the side vs compressing their stride in front of the jump. Vs a horse that just can not hold their lead especially if they are swapping out behind constantly.

If it is just occasionally I may go for it more than one where it happens constantly and you can barely go 5 strides (the 2 in my experience were like that).

[kelo]

@enjoytheride

In my experience cross firing behind can be a sign of weakness, especially in a horse that canters with it’s head up and it’s back down, or trails its hocks. Some conformation types crossfire a lot on the lunge, but not under saddle.

One of my mares crossfired a lot on the lunge under saddle and on the lunge espe

Just for sake of conversation, I looked at a yearling prospect who NEVER took a true canter stride when I was looking at her. As in she cross cantered, both directions, for every stride, around a large arena (not on a longe line, just chased with a flag).

In the video I got before I got there, taken on a longe line, she took a few true canter strides, then broke to a cross canter (and I just assumed it was a weakness).

I passed on her because she was not bargain priced, and was so consistent in it. Her breeder/seller, told me it was just the stage of growth, that her sister “did the exact same thing” and now was perfectly normal. I don’t know if that’s a truth or lie, and the horse was located too far from my vet that I didn’t pursue further x-rays or anything.

I never really knew what would cause that – conformation deficit? pain? or if it was just a passing weakness phase that she would’ve grown out of?

I do think about her sometimes, she was a pretty horse, good bloodlines, very gentle temperament, nice mover at the walk and trot, and my dream color.

[enjoytheride]

@kelo

Just for sake of conversation, I looked at a yearling prospect who NEVER took a true canter stride when I was looking at her. As in she cross cantered, both directions, for every stride, around a large arena (not on a longe line, just chased with a flag).

In the video I got before I got there, taken on a longe line, she took a few true canter strides, then broke to a cross canter (and I just assumed it was a weakness).

I passed on her because she was not bargain priced, and was so consistent in it. Her breeder/seller, told me it was just the stage of growth, that her sister “did the exact same thing” and now was perfectly normal. I don’t know if that’s a truth or lie, and the horse was located too far from my vet that I didn’t pursue further x-rays or anything.

I never really knew what would cause that – conformation deficit? pain? or if it was just a passing weakness phase that she would’ve grown out of?

I do think about her sometimes, she was a pretty horse, good bloodlines, very gentle temperament, nice mover at the walk and trot, and my dream color.

A horse with a high head is very prone to cross canter. So if it’s being chased around a field or running on a lunge line I don’t let it bother me. If it’s being ridden correctly under saddle I would assume hock issues.

Putting side reins on usually fixes the issue pretty quickly.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Having bred more than a few now…and been at breeding farms full of youngsters…yes. Many go through that stage when in a growth spurt and balance changing…ESPECIALLY as yearlings…there is a reason many yearlings are hidden behind the barn…they can really go through a yack stage. No idea how old the OPs horse was but since ridden…I’d suspect at least 3 or 4. And if he isn’t cross firing loose now but is undersaddle…that really isn’t uncommon. Their balance is still changing at that age…and some take time with a rider. Is it risk free…of course not. But on the internet…none of us can give an informed opinion on a particular horse. OP needs to bring in a trusted advisor who has experience in younger horses…AND knows the market and needs a vet opinion.

[Puffergrrl]

I got silver at Zone Jumper Finals, won a few local prixs, and made Gold Star Emerging Athlete on a mare that would absolutely not do a lead change, so she regularly cross cantered behind. And my horse before that had perfect changes on the flat, but couldn’t be bothered to change when we were jumping. You get extremely used to it and the horses do too. In some ways it actually forces them to be straighter and more evenly balanced on the way to the fence (as long as you’re steering and not letting them weave all over the place because of how it feels). AND it’s a great way to get the price knocked down because everyone out horse shopping wants everything to be perfect and that’s how you get broken horses with shitty attitudes that had great X-rays when you bought them.

Best horse shopping advice I’ve ever gotten. “You can’t ride a pedigree and the judge isn’t looking at your X-rays, so be reasonable.”

It says you’re an Eventer, so there is definitely going to be a problem if you really want to do dressage and you’re not able to correct the problem with time and hard work. However, if it never resolves, it is entirely possible to do cross country and/or showjumping with a horse that cross canters behind.

It sounds like you’re having your vet take a look, which is smart. Possibly some X-rays if he/she suspects something. If the horse is cheap, I wouldn’t spend the money on a scan/MRI. It will cost you WAY more than you’ll learn. I’ve had so many people send horses for MRIs and scans and I don’t know of 1 (including myself) that got any useful information for the thousands of dollars and days at the vet it took. I wouldn’t totally discount this horse. It could be a lucky find!

[xitmom]

I would run from that one. It could also be a sign of a neurological issue that shows up primarily at the canter because of the way that the spine has to bend in the canter stride (whereas he can keep the spine pretty stable at the walk and trot).

Ask me how I know. 🙄

[DGEventing]

I’ve dealt with a fair number of horses that do this. While you can never be certain, most of the time this goes away with slow and correct training. Entirely depends if you are willing to take the risk or not…

[kookicat]

@caryledee

I had one with some sort of pelvic issue. He swapped leads behind when I first got him and I thought it was just a matter of strengthening. I did improve the cross cantering but other issues kept popping up that we were never able to find the cause for. Many chiro appointments found nothing, SI injection helped a bit but once I started pushing him a bit he would show signs of being sore somewhere. He flexed fine and wasn’t actually lame though. It was frustrating. I eventually found him an easier job. Diagnosing pelvic issues gets expensive quick and may not have a solution. I’d pass on this guy. Sorry!

That fits with my experience. I have a mare who won’t stay sound and used to swap behind. She’s also extremely cold backed. Best we can figure she fell as a yearling and injured her pelvis which has resulted in some soft tissue damage that keeps getting inflamed.