horse that cross-fires on hind end; should I buy?

[Backyardhorse_girl]

Hello…my first post here…
I am looking at purchasing a well bred horse, from a reputable sales barn, priced very low because he naturally switches his hind, back and forth, at the canter. More so on the right lead. He has been xrayed, chiroed and had his SI checked–all fine. He has been in clinics where it is suggested he needs time building strengthening, flexion and suppleness through his hocks and back (small circles, hill work, trotting poles, haunches in, trot canter trans, walk halt trans.). I am patient and in no rush–I am willing to hack and school, and hopefully work on the issue (with trainer help),

but my question is…has anyone had success with this? Is there a chance he will never be able to hold the canter? are there other issues that might develop in light of this? Is this a major RED flag (i do know there is a risk)? but he is a sweet sweet boy, and a nice mover (and a very good price)… I like showing at low level fun eventing, and I love dressage (but without high aspirations).
Any feedback would be most welcomed; thank you

[Scribbler]

It sounds like his people have done all the diagnostics and are selling him cheap because they do not think they can fix this. If you buy this horse you are buying a horse that cannot canter correctly under saddle for a physical reason. I would not count on being able to fix this problem.

You cannot do dressage on this horse even at basic levels. It may interfere with jumping and it means you will probably never get a proper flying change which is important for jumping much earlier than it is for dressage.

I would pass. It’s an unusual problem for a horse to have and I would not willingly take it on just thinking I was getting a bargain

”‹”‹”‹”‹

[bornfreenowexpensive]

It is really hard to say over the internet. Swapping behind is quite common…especially with green or out of shape horses. It can be a sign of unsoundess somewhere…or just crookedness…poor fitting tack…Neuro issue/EPM…or a slew of things. I’ve dealt with it quite often with Young horses and fresh OTTBs. Normally, in those cases, we resolved it in time with slow proper work. Usually NOT with a lot of a canter work…but going back to a lot of suppling work, strengthens work, hills, cavalettis and just plan consistency and time. But how much of a RED flag it is really just depends. If it is coming from something Neuro or EPM or Lyme…he may need treatment and there is no guarantee of improvement. If it a soundness issue that isn’t addressed…same. If it is just a strength/balance thing…then I would have confidence that you could improve with proper work and time. It sounds like he is priced to reflect the risk…although free may be the better price…

[Calling_Duck]

To paraphrase Denny Emerson, “There are a million horses in America, why do you want THAT one?” To quote my dad, “It’s not the cost of the horse, it’s the upkeep.” Memorizing those two statements when you are horse shopping can help you avoid a great deal of financial and emotional heartbreak. Good luck in your search.

[joiedevie99]

Clear pass. They’re unloading him cheap because they can’t fix him. This is not a bargain.

IMHO, it’s nearly impossible to rule out pain/neurological issues in these cases. You can do a full work-up at a hospital for many thousands of dollars and still not really know much.

[Redlei44]

A jumper can cross canter to the jumps all it wants, as long as the jumps stay up and you don’t mind the ride. If there is truly no pain/welfare reason for the swap, it’s not disqualifying,

That only works out if you want to do straight show jumping, though. Since you want to do dressage, I say pass.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I think people are off base a bit…if he is at a sales barn…they only make money on horses that they move fast. That is the business model of pretty much all sale barns. These kind of issues are NOT ones you can resolve fast. That doesn’t mean they will not resolve.

You could be getting a really nice horse cheap because YOU are willing to put in the time…and take the risk. Me…I don’t run from that sort of horse…BUT I would want my vet to look at them, and want the records disclosed. Total gamble…but there are many sales barns that will unload a horse like this fast. I’ve gotten a couple really nice ones because the sales barn knew the horse needed time…and they gave them to me because they knew I would take the time.

[SonnysMom]

@bornfreenowexpensive

I think people are off base a bit…if he is at a sales barn…they only make money on horses that they move fast. That is the business model of pretty much all sale barns. These kind of issues are NOT ones you can resolve fast. That doesn’t mean they will not resolve.

You could be getting a really nice horse cheap because YOU are willing to put in the time…and take the risk. Me…I don’t run from that sort of horse…BUT I would want my vet to look at them, and want the records disclosed. Total gamble…but there are many sales barns that will unload a horse like this fast. I’ve gotten a couple really nice ones because the sales barn knew the horse needed time…and they gave them to me because they knew I would take the time.

Or he is at the sales barn because the owners gave up on solving the issue?

It is one thing to try to solve an issue like this on a horse your already own. Why buy a known issue even if the price is low? This is especially true for people that board. If you have your own property and have the money and room for a pasture pet it is easier to take that risk.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@SonnysMom

Or he is at the sales barn because the owners gave up on solving the issue?

It is one thing to try to solve an issue like this on a horse your already own. Why buy a known issue even if the price is low? This is especially true for people that board. If you have your own property and have the money and room for a pasture pet it is easier to take that risk.

I’m assuming sale barn because they either imported him…or he is at a reseller who picked him up cheap thinking they could flip him and he isn’t going to be a quick flip. That’s why I said this is not something easy to advise on over the internet. BUT…this isn’t a hard no. It depends on the facts…and would depend on my vet (if we thought this was neurological or mechanical…or just strength).

I took on horses like this LONG before I had my own farm and when I still boarded…because I liked the project. And I had fun in the process. So for me, it didn’t matter as much if this was my “dream” horse or even if I made money. I was just looking for a fun project.

[Backyardhorse_girl]

He is at a breeder’s barn, and has been for sale for some time, and they are clearing out for spring babies. But he is also not selling…
I am a bit of a sucker for a cute horse, but already have one with heaves that has developed over time and is a bit of a pasture pet, so probably this is not the right horse for me for what I want to do, and can afford…

[Backyardhorse_girl]

@Calling Duck

To paraphrase Denny Emerson, “There are a million horses in America, why do you want THAT one?” To quote my dad, “It’s not the cost of the horse, it’s the upkeep.” Memorizing those two statements when you are horse shopping can help you avoid a great deal of financial and emotional heartbreak. Good luck in your search.

oh this is sage advice–and so me!!! my heart rushes in…

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Good luck to you OP…as a breeder. I’ve sold a couple very very cheap and have one I’m about to free lease. I don’t have time to ride them all and sometimes you just need to get them off your books. I am and would be picky as to who I would sell them too…As in the end, I’m already at a loss so at that point, I just want them in a good home. If he is a big immature type…the cross firing would bother me less. They tend to go through that phase while growing and unbalanced. Does he do it when just loose in the field? If they are reputable breeders and there really isn’t something like a neuro issue (wobblers is one thing I worry about)…he could be a good buy. But you need help from a good vet to advise you…not the internet.

[PNWjumper]

I agree with BFNE! If the horse is young or less-than-fit, it is not such a big red flag that I would walk (if the price was right). I have had horses that swapped behind at stages in their lives…usually in the younger/awkward phases, but occasionally as a result of body issues (e.g. needed a better chiro than they were seeing prior and some better conditioning).

But I also agree with everything else BFNE says.

[enjoytheride]

Under saddle or on the lunge line?

[Backyardhorse_girl]

Thank you all for giving me more to think about, and will definitely get a vet check if I decide to go forth

[OneTwoMany]

@Backyardhorse girl

He is at a breeder’s barn, and has been for sale for some time, and they are clearing out for spring babies. But he is also not selling…
I am a bit of a sucker for a cute horse, but already have one with heaves that has developed over time and is a bit of a pasture pet, so probably this is not the right horse for me for what I want to do, and can afford…

Another vote for asking the breeder to release the vet records and I’d probably ask for a statement from the vet regarding their findings and the prognosis.

If your vet isn’t put off by the horse’s records, the vet statement and some video of the cross-firing, maybe it is worth asking the breeder if you could have a month trial. If the breeder needs to make room it cannot hurt to ask. A month won’t tell you everything, but it might tell you enough.

[enjoytheride]

In my experience cross firing behind can be a sign of weakness, especially in a horse that canters with it’s head up and it’s back down, or trails its hocks. Some conformation types crossfire a lot on the lunge, but not under saddle.

One of my mares crossfired a lot on the lunge under saddle and on the lunge espe

[spacehorse]

@bornfreenowexpensive I sent you a pm.

[bip]

This type of project only works for people with a lot of support and flexibility. You need to be able to count on a good lameness vet, farrier (who is willing to work with your vet), trainer, saddle fitter, body worker. And you need to have options for boarding that give you a ton of control over the horse’s lifestyle, such as 24/7 turnout if necessary, trails with hills for strengthening, barn staff that will follow your instructions (or a job/family life that allow you to carry out vet’s orders on your own). And most important, you need a plan for what to do if you spend $$$ on diagnostics and a year on treatments only to be stuck right where you started. Will the breeder take it back? Do you have your own pasture that you don’t mind this one taking up space in? Do you have the stomach/disposition to euthanize?

This is not a horse for anyone who would be counting on riding this one horse. But if you don’t mind a period of not riding or have other horses to ride, and you have tons of good options for its care, it might not be a bad risk.

[Divine_Comedy]

When I was 20, I finally scrounged up enough money to buy my first horse and bought an OTTB from a local hunter/jumper barn in December of his 4 yr old year. He was restarted, had been out to some schooling shows, and generally seemed on the right track.

By March, I couldn’t canter him without him cross-firing and switching leads almost every stride. I don’t know if it was something the H/J barn knew about but was able to tune him up well enough to hide for sale or something that developed unexpectedly. Young horses have issues that crop up sometimes.

I didn’t have the money to go down the diagnosis road and quite frankly, didn’t realize I should have crossed off all of those boxes. This was my first horse. I just didn’t know.

Instead I spent weeks doing trot to canter transitions on a 20 meter circle, starting with a very light, low contact. I’d start with just trying to get 4 or 5 strides without swapping, then trot again. Eventually I aimed for a half circle, then 3/4 of a circle, then a whole circle. I slowly picked up the contact a bit, just enough to have an acceptable BN frame.

One day it was like a light bulb came on in his head and he stopped swapping on the flat. He still swapped and cross-fired while jumping.

I ultimately ran Advanced and 4*-S (back when it was CIC3*) on that horse. I didn’t have a single problem with swapping on the flat again until I started working with him on lead changes for Advanced. He counter cantered great (and I was extremely methodical about teaching him to counter canter) and could hold true canter great but once he hit Advanced, if he was tense he would swap or cross-fire. And he was often tense.

Even when I did eventually work through and start to get more relaxation in tests, I would almost always get one cross-fire per test. It usually happened in a corner, unrelated to any scored movement, and was back so quick that I almost never even got a comment from the judges about it.

Never was able to get him to stop swapping while jumping. He did it a lot and so smoothly that I grew to not even notice it. It was pretty slick of him and never hindered him but he definitely preferred to jump over a fence with his hind end on the left lead, regardless of what the front end was doing.

Having said all of that…no, I wouldn’t buy a cross-firing horse. If he’d been cross-firing during his trial I’d have walked away. I would have missed out on the horse of a lifetime but it’s still a huge red flag to me.

Can it be fixed enough to compete? Absolutely…depending on the horse. And mine was sharp as a tack, so I think the difference was that he figured out what he was supposed to be doing and did it.

But I think I lucked out more than anything. I wouldn’t want to gamble again.