Thanks everyone for your thoughts so far. When I lunge, it’s just with the halter. Im hesitant to try any kind of aids to control him because honestly I see him blowing through them. Lots of things to think about.
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I want to say how impressed I am to see Saratoga responding so positively to suggestions. So often people post questions or dilemma and then respond “no, but” to every response.
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Here’s something I have done with horses who had learnt to bolt on the lunge. Find a tall, strong pole in the middle of a field. A tree will also work as long as the lowest branches are above head height. Wrap the lunge line a couple of times around the post. Lunge back and forth - lots of changes in direction as the line winds or unwinds around the post. Always keep at least one turn. When horse bolts, use the post to help stop him. I’ve only needed to ever have two lunging sessions like this before the horse really understands that he cannot run off.
Now I do lots of ground work, circling and disengaging, and changing direction. Slow changes with young horses so they learto think their way through, but lots of crossing over behind.
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He’s 3…most horses are just being started and a group trail ride would be considered a huge success and milestone in training. He’s also a draft and big, as they grow in spurts things can become uncomfortable and their balance can be off so lunging can be hard. It seems like he’s been started early and quickly and possibly overfaced and has some holes in his training based on how pushy he is.
My guy made me a little nervous with some bad behaviors before he was broke. I stayed within my skill set and basically just did lots of desensitizing. He also has that puppy dog walk all over you personality. I then sent him to a trainer to really start and break him and very quickly she instilled respect and it easily transferred over to me.
If I were you I’d adjust your mindset…he’s 3, he should be learning basics right now, walking in a straight line, reacting and turning with your seat, balance and forward motion at the trot and maybe if he’s feeling well balanced a little bit of canter. The entire 3 year old year after training mine was ridden about 3 times a week for 20ish minutes and 90% of that was at a walk. A calm happy trail ride was celebrated, trotting over simple poles was celebrated etc.
It’s deceptive because yours has had more training but if it’s not correct training you may have to go back a few steps. He’s also going to go through some growth spurts where suddenly he’s not balanced and can’t trot or canter or work on a circle as well as he could the day before, he’ll need some time to balance out again.
I’d also consider sending him for 30 days with a good trainer who will establish the boundaries, not let him get away with bolting and then work with you to transfer those techniques to you. Or bring in a good trainer who also does groundwork/lunging and take some lessons. Based on my personal experience videos aren’t going to be enough. I needed someone stronger to tell mine no, establish the rules and then show me how to keep the rules enforced. Nip it in the bud soon and I don’t think it needs to be a long term spiral where he keeps pushing your buttons and getting away with bad behavior.
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You need far more control than a halter will offer. Do you have a lungeing cavesson? I’d suggest that to start. With his bolting, for now I’d be less inclined to control it with a bit because he is a baby and you just don’t want to get him thinking the bit is something to be scared of. With a horse that bolts, my thinking is they ‘overreact’ emotionally, so that would then translate into ‘the bit is something to be afraid of’.
Somebody else mentioned only lunging at a walk, and see what happens. I agree. I would work on a couple of things: One, shorten the line length. You’re only walking, not gonna hurt. Walk with him - don’t stand in one spot while he moves. As you walk with him, work on where he is in relation to you - keep him X distance from you, keep yourself at about his flank (to encourage him forward) and LEARN TO BEND HIM. Bend does NOT mean he turns his head. We all know the horses that can run off over the outside shoulder with their necks bent to the inside. Bend means he lifts up his ribcage, steps under with the hind, and goes forward. That might sound ‘advanced’ - but it is not. And, keep a steady but following contact with the lunge line. You need to be able to feel him at all times.
I would start with that, and I would keep it slow and steady. Every single time you handle him, he gets no passes on his spatial relationship to you - those are EARNED, and he hasn’t.
I like to think of it like in the movie ‘Dirty Dancing’ where Jennifer Grey is stepping on Patrick Swayze’s feet as he teaches her to dance. Finally he gets mad and says “my dance space/your dance space”.
One last thought: He has a ‘tell’. Learn to spot it, and defuse it before it becomes the explosion.
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You need far more control than a halter will offer. Do you have a lungeing cavesson? I’d suggest that to start. With his bolting, for now I’d be less inclined to control it with a bit because he is a baby and you just don’t want to get him thinking the bit is something to be scared of. With a horse that bolts, my thinking is they ‘overreact’ emotionally, so that would then translate into ‘the bit is something to be afraid of’.
Somebody else mentioned only lunging at a walk, and see what happens. I agree. I would work on a couple of things: One, shorten the line length. You’re only walking, not gonna hurt. Walk with him - don’t stand in one spot while he moves. As you walk with him, work on where he is in relation to you - keep him X distance from you, keep yourself at about his flank (to encourage him forward) and LEARN TO BEND HIM. Bend does NOT mean he turns his head. We all know the horses that can run off over the outside shoulder with their necks bent to the inside. Bend means he lifts up his ribcage, steps under with the hind, and goes forward. That might sound ‘advanced’ - but it is not. And, keep a steady but following contact with the lunge line. You need to be able to feel him at all times.
I would start with that, and I would keep it slow and steady. Every single time you handle him, he gets no passes on his spatial relationship to you - those are EARNED, and he hasn’t.
I like to think of it like in the movie ‘Dirty Dancing’ where Jennifer Grey is stepping on Patrick Swayze’s feet as he teaches her to dance. Finally he gets mad and says “my dance space/your dance space”.
One last thought: He has a ‘tell’. Learn to spot it, and defuse it before it becomes the explosion.
First, I’m going to respond to the question as asked: “Horse that “has your number”- have you ever turned it around?”
Now days, mostly no.
If I end up in a situation where a horse “has my number,” it’s usually because the horse requires me to be things that I’m not, or I’m not anymore now that I’m an old lady, or I just don’t want to be anymore. Things like, always be vigilant, or be a confident, proactive rider. And at my age, I’m OK with that. So, I’m just no longer interested in owning a horse that is interested in “getting my number.” (I hope that makes sense.)
That said, based on your description, OP, I don’t think this horse has your number at all. It sounds to me like he 1.) lacks sufficient good training and 2.) has that draft brain. I would bet that most anyone would experience the same issues you are. The solutions are 1.) improving the quality and amount of training (I’d get help from a good colt-starter) and 2.) develop a better understanding of how you go about working with the draft brain and work within those limitations.
I used to own a draft mare and two draft mules. They can pose some unique challenges due to their size and default inclination to use that size to their advantage. Not all drafts and draft crosses are this way, but it sounds like yours might be.
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I totally understand why you don’t want to use a bit, although I also think you need more control if you’re going to get on top of the issue. There are a lot of options you can use. A rope halter might work if you aren’t already using one, although my horse flips the rope halter the bird. A lunging cavesson may help. A bridle with with lunge line over the poll offers a lot of control (too much in some instances) without a ton of direct pressure on the bit.
Something I found beneficial for my mare is breaking up lunging sessions with lots of groundwork. Instead of just going around and around and around the whole time, I ask for a couple laps out on the circle, then bring her back in to me and work on something else for a few minutes. We work on things like backing softly, yielding her shoulder and haunches, side passes, walking next to me and following my body cues, etc. Then I send her back out for a couple more laps on the circle. Repeat throughout the session. Keeping her engaged in this manner generally prevents a giant temper tantrum.
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There are many good suggestions here. I do have one thing to offer…put a bridle on w no reins. Run the lunge line through the bit, wrap it around, and then run it over his nose and snap it to the bit on the other side. It should be snug. I had one that was very skilled at bolting…and getting away…on the lunge line. This worked very well. Edited to add I used a plain snaffle.
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You are working on solutions for dealing with, what sounds like, a lot of horse for you. Simultaneously, you’re really shooting yourself in the foot with this rational. Certainly we should never just “ante up” so to speak, but there are appropriate tools and equipment for lunging that will help better convey aids and simultaneously give you more control.
My instructor had a very nice lesson horse. Under saddle, he was an absolute dream of a babysitter. On the lunge though he could occasionally get a bit cheeky. Due to his size (legitimately sticked at 17’3) she had a series of rules in place for handling him. Only two people were permitted to lunge him (having the appropriate skills and horse sense to see how the situation was escalating, if it were) and he was never in just a halter. The one time she got lazy and took it for granted that he had been so good all season was the one time he turned her into a kite at the end of a lunge line. Do consider lunging in a bridle (take reins off as mentioned above) or find a cavesson. Similarly, this horse always went in a rope halter when being led to/from turnout.
Set yourself up for success. Right now, he’s gotten the upper hand on you. If you’re not certain you have the appropriate education or skill to leverage equipment and situations correctly to make sure he learns this behavior isn’t appropriate, then I 100% would get a trainer involved. Frankly, I think it couldn’t hurt to get a trainer involved anyway. They can help get you on the right track, talk you through responses and how to react properly and hopefully, how to be proactive rather than reactive (to prevent problems from cropping up). And of course, the caveat of all of the work should be age/level appropriate for the horse. Overfacing them physically or emotionally will only create more problems.
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Try a bit for lunging. Be prepared to use a chain and the line through a stirrup or surcingle, but don’t go there first. I thought he was blowing through a bit.
Very, very few big horses can be lunged in a halter. The halter just isn’t enough feedback for them. A lot of times it isn’t even malicious, they just get cantering and forget to keep turning… and suddenly their human is a kite behind them.
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To me, a horse “having your number” means they know they can get away with certain things with you that they otherwise know are wrong and wouldn’t necessarily try with every rider.
I rode a mare for years who kept a running list of people’s numbers! She was a wonderful schoolhorse type and brilliantly smart, until you pointed her somewhere she didn’t feel like going for whatever reason. She had this special half-rear trick that she knew would freak me out just enough to get her out of work, until I finally realized she wasn’t actually going to stick to her guns and rear for real, as long as I stuck to mine.
She also stopped with me quite a bit on xc because she just knew that my confidence wasn’t there - her owner could hop on her and pop over training height jumps while I could barely get her over BN. I eventually just quit trying to event her and focused on our dressage instead.
However the mare was already 14 or 15 years old by that point - It seems like your horse is just a baby and many of the suggestions above would help. Good luck!!
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Not to pile on, but I also have experienced several horses, young and old, green and made, who did not lunge in just a halter. With a bridle, delightful. With just a halter, nearly guaranteed to leave the scene. Totally common. If you lunge with a bridle, and he still leaves the scene, you’ll know that you have a bigger issue.
I have a draft cross mare… I will say that working with one tends to be different than working with say a thoroughbred or a quarter horse. My mare used to LOVE the “body check and leave” move. She’s shove into you with her shoulder and then drag you wherever she wanted to go once you were off balance. I learned later that her old owner had trouble riding her because May would decide she would want to go left, and she would GO LEFT. With or without her rider’s consent.
Now? Small children can handle this horse and she has the best manners. But… if you let them get away with it once (or more than once), it WILL become a habit. Find someone to help you out that can install the good manners and is knowledgeable using the tools necessary to do so. (Bridle when lunching, chain while leading, etc).
You can come out the other side of this with one of those really well behaved drafts you always dreamed of. But it’ll take some work from both of you. Best of luck!
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I would send this horse to a really good trainer, soon. Show up and watch as much as you can. Take lessons on the horse.
Or, cut your losses now and get something more broke, easier, older.
Make your move sooner than later. Don’t get yourself hurt or in a situation where you develop a loss of confidence.
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Just sayin…a LOT of bad riding can ruin a young horse!! Sounds like he needs a bit of “retraining” by an experienced trainer before you give up. Know too that not all draft crosses have the right “body style/conformation” for work under saddle. The drafts are a “pulling” type horse. Good luck.
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I also have a minimalist home set-up and I’m bringing along three young WBs. I’ve been riding OTTBs fresh off the track since I was 14, bringing them up through Prelim eventing. The baby non-OTTBs are different, they don’t have a ton of experience like horses that have been to the track. I found I really needed to up my horsemanship game. I second Incantation’s recommendation on Warwick Schiller videos if you don’t have someone who can coach you on site.
I have given up on horses/problems I didn’t enjoy solving. I always make sure the horse ends up ok, but life’s too short for a full time working amateur if I don’t feel safe.
Good luck!
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Sounds like he has no idea what you are asking him to do in the arena , so he acts out. It is amazing how many sellers ride a willing , good natured horse in a group trail ride where they just follow along and call them broke, but have never taught them anything.
He is a big baby in mind and body at 3. I would back off and restart him completely just riding at the walk teaching aids, moving off the leg, bending , steering etc… and do major ground work.
I lunge with a bridle all the time with the line attached to the bit and run through the other side( using a snaffle) with good results. It even kept my mule from dragging me off and it wasn’t harsh if I had to pull, but it did get his attention.
I think he is 100% savable and you can do it.
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My 11 year old OTTB really shouldn’t be lunged in a halter. He has a great tuck my nose to my chest and take off move that may not show its head for months but then wham and he’s gone. There is no holding on unless we’re in a smaller area.
It has never happened when I lunge with a bridle.
I also like the idea mentioned above of lunging only a few laps then doing ground work and rotating between those two. Keep your sessions short enough that he’s not getting bad to begin with then slowly, hopefully, you’ll be able to lengthen that time.
That’s how I train my puppies to heel off leash. Once it’s established on leash I only ask for a couple steps before rewarding them off leash. The trick is to reward before the pup gets distracted and does something undesirable. I’ve admittedly never trained a young horse, but that’s what works for me with young dogs.
Best of luck! I don’t think you need to give up yet (though if you do, no judgement), but I’d bring in a trainer for a month or two to help redirect both of you.
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This is pretty much what I’ve been doing. I scaled it down to a walk only on small circle / walking alongside him moving his body, but hes taken off in this scenario too.
This morning I put my other horses up and just quietly asked him with body language and voice to move around- get out of my space, walk forward etc and he again ran off after a short while, buckin and fartin and the whole nine yards. I think he doesn’t want to be controlled like that. He ran around wild for a few minutes, then when he was quieting down I told him to whoa and come in, and he did, gave him a treat, and repeated the process a few times. He definitely seemed to calm down after exertion. I wonder if that’s how he was trained :(. Anyhow, I feel safer /better doing this than physically being dragged and having the physical connection broken.
Going to go on a group trail ride tomorrow. I would love to be able to just ride him at a walk in my backyard, which I had been doing, but like I said, a few days ago he just refused to move so I abandoned that because I wondered about him bolting in this scenario.
Please keep the comments coming. I’m considering them all.
