What did you do when he ran off?
He doesn’t “have your number”. He is untrained and it is apparent that you don’t have the tools to instill the proper behavior and training into him.
I am am not saying that to be snarky but if you want to keep him, before he hurts you, I would pronto send him to a trainer that does have the tools. This stuff needs to be stopped NOW and the proper responses installed.
I personally don’t like to handle large horses. They intimidate me even if they never put a foot wrong…I admit it. Good luck with your guy but I think you need some help…pronto.
Susan
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As others have said, 3 is super young for a draft. He hopefully wasn’t started that long ago so he probably only has a few months under saddle, right? I would try to get yourself out of the mix set that “he has your number” and get in the mindset of “this horse is still in training.” It’s really that simple, right now he thinks the way he’s acting is in his best interest and you have to figure out a way to convince him that life is easier when he behaves. The good news is that this is such a good age to work with horses because they haven’t been in these habits for years and years.
I think it would be best if you both worked with a trainer. I don’t love it when people send them to a trainer because I think it’s in everyone’s best interest if YOU learn to correct the issues and the horse learns it from you.
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How much turnout is he getting? Is he getting a chance to buck and play and be a baby horse during the day? Is he actually using that time to buck and play or does he just sit and eat cause all his pasturemates are boring? Or are you taking a squirrely kinder gardener and asking him to behave himself and work on his lessons. (Yeah, horses should always behave when we are handling them, but we also need to set babies up for success, and starting with a focused mind that isn’t hopped up on pent up energy can help when trying to teach them what right looks like.)
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It’s a draft cross. with a TB, you whisper to start and grow to normal commands. With a draft cross, you shout to start and then grow to normal commands.
I would put this sucker on a longe with a chain and get it cantering. In about 4.5 seconds he’ll be ready to negotiate with you. Keep his mind engaged and keep the lessons 15-20 minutes tops.
Drafts are not subtle horses. They don’t do walk longe lines without getting bored and checking out.
If you don’t progress, send him to a good Ray Hunt type trainer that will keep the horse challenged and interested and worked. the silly will go away.
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A three-year-old horse is equivalent to an 11-1/2 year-old kid. 6th grader. Middle school. Headed for life as a teenager. That is where his head is at. Keep in mind a horse’s attention span is 3 seconds. He needs at least 3-4 more years for his body to mature. All that longing and riding are not good for his development.
Your guy has this all figured out. You ask him for something. He gives you a few minutes. Then the alarm in his head goes off. He blows you off, bolts and gets wacky. Next time you do something different, same routine - he blows you off again. It isn’t that he “doesn’t want to be controlled like that.” You don’t have control. He knows that all he needs to do is give you 5 minutes and then he exits the scene. Whenever we have contact with our horses we are training them. Haphazard training creates holes in their training and at some point someone will have to fill them in. Or write him off.
Where is square one? What is your plan? Does he give you little hints that he’s getting ready to take off? Don’t assume anyone taught him anything, no matter what the seller said. He’s 3 years old. You have to break your pattern. Break things down into steps. Do a lesson plan. On a lead line do forward and halt, for example. If you get 5 good minutes - hell, one good minute - stop! Always stop in a good place. Reward good behavior. Most bad behavior can be ignored (unless dangerous such as biting). Repetitions and consistency are important. Three steps forward, one step back is typical. Go back to a good place and start again.
I hit 72 y.o. in a few weeks, and my gelding will be 26. We have been at our barn for 19 years. I’ve seen some good stuff, some fantastic stuff, a boatload of lousy training, and too many flags. I keep my mouth shut most of the time although it is frustrating. At least 75% of longing is useless. Most people don’t know how to use it as a training tool. There is more to it than running around in a circle, WTC, in both directions. I feel sorry for the people who believe that 10-15 minutes will tire out a fractious horse before they mount up. It’s warmup. The training issues are still there. I quit years ago when I kept throwing up and falling over by the end of one circle. He was gazing at the scenery, anyhow.
Why not take some time off? Don’t get on him for a week and let him chill out. Easy ground work and walking around. They are great at reading our body language. He can tell if you are tense or nervous or aggravated. The trick is to stay calm no matter how much he is pissing you off.
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Yes, is he getting turned out? If you can find him a friend that he likes to play with and get him out for a good amount of time every day that will help. You may even want to try leaving him out overnight for a little while (weather and bugs permitting). Sometimes that takes some of the extra squirrelies out.
If he is always well behaved on his trail rides and comes back mellow and/or tired, you might try lunging him after you come back. Work with him while he’s in a cooperative and positive frame of mind.
I also agree with the folks saying you should be lunging in a bridle. There are 2 options for what to do with the line. You can put it through the inside bit ring, up over the pole (on top of the bridle), and clip to the bit ring on the far side. The option if you need more control is to put a chain-end line through the inside bit ring, over the nose, and clip it to the bit ring on the other side. (If you use the chain, you’d better be ready to give it a good yank if he acts up or there’s no point in putting it on).
If you get all the way to giving him a good, sharp yank on the chain and he doesn’t get the memo or at least get surprised enough to break the habit, then you’ll want to go to a surcingle and side-reins or a Passoa rig.
But yeah, try to do the difficult work when he’s tired. And for ground manners, carry a crop, but use it judiciously. Then aim to be 100% consistent in every correction you enforce. Don’t let something go one day and correct it another. Same behavior, same reaction. Every. Single. Time.
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Yes… I was trying to politely say this without getting attacked 🤣
Drafts need a strong hand at first. They are big, somewhat thick skinned, thick headed, and sometimes a bit dumb. But you love them anyways.
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I’ve known a couple of men like this too.:lol::lol::lol:
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When he runs off with the line, I just go fetch him or the other day when he was loose, i just stood there while he ran around and then called him in when he seemed to get tired. I try not to show emotion or get mad as that won’t help.
My horses are out all day on about an acre. I’m working from home now so watch them alot. He’s constantly walking around and messing around.
I’m actually not a big lunging person…really never used it much with my horses beyond initial training, not one of those people who lunge prior to riding, but I do think it’s a basic skill that a horse should have and I do think it shows to some degree how compliant the horse is / helps with accepting leadership etc
Funny about the strong hand thing. I went on a trail ride with friends today…he was balky about wanting to get in front or alongside the horse in front. I switched horses with my cowboy friend who had a blast schooling his ass, trot and canter up front, circling around us, going off on his own, etc. Definitely worked up a great sweat, good attitude adjustment and hit home for me the strength and confidence I need to have with him. I think he’s a really nice horse, definitely has to know who the leader is. The saga continues…
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That’s an issue if you’re allowing him to run off with no consequences. Horses learn by pressure and release, work and relaxation. If a horse is not obeying me, well, then they’re going to get pressure and work. You’re letting him do what he wants and then giving him a treat when he decides he’s done playing and comes back? That isn’t teaching him anything. First off, make sure you’re in a space small enough you can work in, get a friend if you need to. If he decides to run, ok, make him keep running, and running, and running until that isn’t fun anymore, then he can relax when he’s paying attention to your aids and not until then.
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That’s actually what I’m doing. He only ran off wild once (off line) and I let him run til he was tired, then called him in, which I rewarded since he did come in but then made him go out again, getting him out of my space, go out to walk /trot/canter etc and after the initial time he exploded and ran off, he’s actually been really obedient. So it’s a start. Not going to push my luck at home yet with a lunge line but going to keep working this way so he’s paying attention and moving the way I’m telling him to. Planning on doing some work on the line after the next trail ride at my friends’ place when he’s tired and I have people to help if needed.
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Oh…and get yourself a nice, thick pair of buckskin gloves. Bare hands and nylon rope do not mix.
As George Schneider used to say, “Never come to battle without your weapons.”
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Gloves are a must all the time for sure!
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I agree with lunging him in your friends round yard.
With the halter the rein is in the incorrect position. It does not stop him turning his head away from you. Once his head is facing away from you you have lost. A normal pony has more muscle in its neck than you have. A draft doesn’t even know you are there.
The lunging cavesson has the ring on the front so as you can bring the nose around towards you.
Lunging needs to be taught. Riding needs to be taught. Groundwork needs to he taught.
The general rule is:-
Every single time you interact with him you are training him.
Every single time you train him he is a little bit better or a little bit worse.
If he is a little bit better each time then yay and in a few weeks you are in a great spot.
If he is a little bit worse each time. Get help now because in a few weeks things have gone from bad to worst.
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Danny Emerson: “… Then, when the horse, with a brain that is dramatically different from ours, resists out of non-comprehension, some people crank up the pressure. It reminds me of the idea that the best way to get a point across to someone who only speaks a foreign language is to shout.”
Horses learn by association and repetition. You don’t necessarily have to consciously intend to train them. Do something consistently every day and that is what he learns. If that’s not what you want that it’s a good idea to sit down and figure out why he got so good at it. The next step is to design the plan you will use to replace it with something else. I’ve done a few things once a day forever, it seems, and I don’t have to ask anymore. He figured them out because I was consistent. One is standing outside a stall while I tidy it up so he can eat the grain he scatters all over the mats. He can look in the door, but if he makes a move to come in he gets an uh-uh-uh. He trained me to wait until he cleans up the floor including both sides of the sill - then we can head for the pasture.
Your horse is on the road to becoming a well-trained horse. SuzieQNutter just gave us 4 perfect rules to take to heart. The problem is that many people don’t want what your horse is getting good at. He knows he can run around for as long he likes. The longer he gets to run around the better shape he is in. The better shape he is in the longer he can run around. When you think he is sufficiently worn out you call him. He heads over to you and gets his treat. If you send him back out to run around some more he is doing what he thinks you asked him to do. He has no clue where your space is. He has no clue what your space is. He has no clue you sent him out of your space. He does have a clue that when you call him he gets a treat.
Horses have a very small frontal lobe, which is the “executive” part of the brain. You can’t tell a horse to go this way, do that, that’s wrong, no I want something else. You can’t control him if you haven’t worked on control. You can’t make him obedient. You can’t ask him to decide what to do. In humans the frontal lobe manages things like problem solving, judgement, memory, planning, strategizing, and impulse control. Those are not qualities we associate with horses. They are hard wired for fear, rapid movement, perception, and associative learning. Fight or flight and survival mode are down deep in the reptilian brain and, as we all know, they react instantly to any perceived threat without our input.
You have to connect a question/request/cue/aid to an action/response. You have roughly 3 seconds to release the pressure and reward him IF he gives you the “correct” answer. It doesn’t have to be a treat. Most of the time it shouldn’t be. Tell him “good boy,” scratch his withers, stroke his neck as much as you can. Do it constantly when you are with him. If you don’t want something don’t react negatively (unless it is dangerous like biting). Get him back were you want him. At the moment, he, not you, is releasing the pressure. When he takes off his reward is running around loose for a while. You reinforce it when you call him and he retrieves his edible reward. It sounds like he is getting plenty of repetitions. He can’t rely on a consistent pattern or routine in his training. It sounds like you pick out something to do depending on how tired he is and what you think might work that day. Training is about consistency and repetitions. It’s irrelevant to the horse whether or not it’s what you want. He thinks it is what you want so he keeps doing it.
I’m going to disagree with a lot of people: Please put the longe line in a closet. He is 3. When he is on the other end of a longe line he is way too far away for you establish much control or maintain contact. Longing is a training tool and what you do depends on what he knows. It has many purposes, such as fitness, muscle development, balance, self-carriage, focus, quality of gaits, transitions, etc. Do ground work every day with ample repetitions. Put his halter and a lead rope on (rope is okay) and start at the walk. You can mix up forward, back, stop and stand, square up, one step to the right, one to the left. The goal is to control where his feet go. Use a random number of steps and stop before he tries to drag you away. Tell him constantly he’s a good boy when he is being a good boy. Scratch his withers. Long strokes on his neck. No treats. The goal is for him to walk next to you at your pace and to stop when you stop. Long term, he does it without a halter.
I’m really concerned about a training strategy built on tiring a horse out. How do you tell he’s tired? How long does it take? How tired does he have to be? Can anyone tire him out, or do they have to know some sort of routine? Does he have to be tired in order to load into a trailer? What if he is injured and needs the vet? Will he be tired enough for treatment? What about the farrier? Do you have to tire him out before you can bring him in? If he is tired is he paying attention to you? What if you can’t be there? Who else can handle him? Right now he is hasn’t learned much self-control. He does what he wants to do. He quits on his own terms. You have little if any influence on his behavior because you wait for him to tire out. If he answers your call he gets a treat. Who knows what happens next.
Horses prefer to live a quiet, lazy life nibbling forage as long as one of them keeps an eye out for predators. Horses speak with horses primarily with body language. They pay attention to human body language also. We tell them things through posture or actions, for example, but we usually don’t realize we said anything.
There is a lot of really good information in this thread, and a lot of good training recommendations. There also are training suggestions that amount to the yelling that Danny Emerson referred to. Trying sitting outside by the fence for an afternoon and observe them. You start to see little things that are very informative. I know my horse will walk to the gate when he slightly drops is head to withers level and glances to the left. I also know that when he pees he gets set up in that posture and when he’s ready to go he lifts his back-end and stands on his toes. That is interesting but probably not useful.
Comb through this thread and pick out things that you can put together to create a training plan. Write it out. Then do it consistently so it is predictable and he understands his role. Don’t skip steps. Back up a few steps if he seems confused. If you are a reader I’m sure there are COTHers that can suggest dozens of books and DVDs. Don’t rush. A lot of horses that retire early were overworked as youngsters and their bodies are worn out.
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I think based on your current posts, (I can’t get quote to work, sorry) that I would not lunge him. Is lunging a useful skill for a horse, yes. Is it necessary? No. In your case, all he is learning on the lunge is that he doesn’t have to listen once he is bored with playing with you. Because, that is what he is doing. He plays your game of go in a circle for a bit, then he plays his game of run around, then he gets a treat.
Work on the ground with him in hand instead. Think of it like teaching a dog to heel in tight. Lots of changes of direction, location, circles, halts. You have to keep him focused on the game of ‘follow the leader’ and you are always, always the leader.
It sounds like your friend on the trail ride was doing this with him. He was giving the horse plenty to think about and plenty to do. He was a confident leader that kept work interesting, that is what is needed here.
On a cautionary note, I have a horse I do not lunge. His bad behavior on the lunge almost certainly started as yours did. Unfortunately, when he realized his trick of running away wasn’t acceptable with me and unlike his previous owner I wanted him to work, things escalated in a spectacularly ugly fashion. He viewed me as a playmate not as a leader. When I told him no I had a a ton (he is a big, late gelded Shire) of horse deciding that if he couldn’t run away, he would make me run away. It was a draw that day, so I went back to work with him in situations that he did still respect me and built from there.
I won’t go into the saga of him. But suffice to say that the success I’ve had with him is primarily due to keeping him focused on me, never letting his attention wander (which doesn’t mean nagging all the time, by the way), and always watching out for the tell of his temper. We do a lot of ground driving, I expect him always to be moving forward and in exchange I make sure that we are not just going in circles. We go down the road, we visit the neighbors, we do a few circles, we go down the road, etc. I always stop on a good note. At first I had to stop before he showed the slightest hint of ‘I’m done with your game’ now I can ask him to keep going. He is an awesome horse, but I don’t trust him and never will. You are not at that point yet, but what I am hearing sounds an awful lot like the formative years for my guy before I got him.
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I made some good progress with him this week! I did some free lunging and groundwork at my place and it went well. I took him to my friend’s place 3x and used their round pen. First just free lunging, which he was very good and respectful for. Second time, I put the lunge line on him after free lunging, and he did bolt off once but couldn’t really do anything since he was contained and the line is long. Today, im happy to say that he didn’t bolt at all.
Today, After lunging I got on him in the round pen and he promptly declined to walk forward, backing up til he got in an area with an overhanging tree and thought he was gonna just kick back. But I manned up, got off and got a dressage whip, asked him to walk and gave khim a flick of the whip and he marched right forward with an appropriate amount of energy. So I rode him for about 5 minutes that way, walk and a bit of trot and was pleased with how we did.
I’m also using my 25 year old Arab as a security blanket. I’m taking him with us to my friend’s place and also when I take the big guy out for grooming, ground work, etc. It’s made him more relaxed. Having a jumpy and nervous huge horse is no good. Obviously he will have to go solo one day but he is a baby now and I want to build on good experiences. I ponied him around my neighborhood and that went pretty good, except for next time I will bring the whip since he wanted to drag along.
I’m not going to lunge with a line outside of the round pen or ride him at my house alone at this time. Going to focus on situations where we can both get some confidence up.
B and B, he’s a Shire cross apparently. Maybe stubbornness is a breed characteristic?
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That is a good update! Yes, better to work in an area where you can control the situation and can get the right responses without the option of the wrong response even existing.
Shires are usually sweethearts but I think they have a bit more brain than a Belgian or Percheron. It tends to get them into trouble with boredom and dominance issues, I think. I’m biased, I love Shires!
I have a 3yo draft cross gelding too who sounds similar to yours, luckily I have prior draft experience- the subtle cues I use on my Arab cross wouldn’t even get a ear flick from him. You have a lot of good useful comments but what I didn’t see mentioned is the fact that your horse drives (mine too). Use that to your advantage ground drive him use your preferred verbal cues that you can also use under saddle. If he decides to run (no shame mine also tried that trick recently) you have a inside & outside “rein” to turn him and make it hard for him. I would recommend running the lines low on his body about stirrup height since that gives you more control then up where they are on the driving harness. Being able to ride him from the ground has helped mine a lot I use it before riding if I suspect anything may bother him. I also would use it after walk/trotting under saddle to school the canter some when he has a growth spurt. My experience with shires has been they are a little quicker to react then many other breeds as babies but well worth the effort as they mature
The other posters saying how drafts are not subtle is absolutely right remember they where bred to throw their weight into the collar and push, it’s not a good or bad trait just one to be aware of
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