horse throws head up in canter transition

[arabiansrock]

Every Single Time. You can be perfectly on the contact, as soon as canter is asked for, up goes the head, down goes the back, and the depart is just not nice. Horse can, but doesn’t always, come back to a nice contact after a few strides. She would be ready to start moving up the levels except for this MAJOR flaw, that just kills her scores and her general rideability. This just insn’t fun.

She has always had a tendency to fight over canter transitions, but even when she is cooperative and willing, she still throws head up in transition. She does it on the lunge line with side reins too.

I HATE gadgets and gimmicks, but am about ready to either put a standing martingale on and lunge tons of transitions, and/or give my kids (they are 25 and 19 and have good hands/seat) draw reins and let them ride that way for awhile, reins loose for walk/trot work and pick them up for canter transitions and make it so she can’t canter without keeping her head down. BUT… that goes against everything I believe in.

Help? Any ideas? correct proper work/training just isn’t working. I don’t know if it is a physical limitation (vet and chiro don’t think it is), a mental limitation (eg that’s hard and I don’t want to) or just plain old habit.

TIA

[AllWeatherGal]

While it may simply be habit in your horse, my experience has been that a head up to any degree is a sign of imbalance (and ensuing tension).

My experience is also that correct training, correctly done will work, on a horse that is not experiencing discomfort.

Examine how you respond when your horse “fights” over canter transitions and try to imagine what she’s experiencing. Is she really balanced or is it possible that she is using her head because she’s afraid she won’t “make it” otherwise?

How do you ride this transition compared to the trot? Is it possible that you’ve become a little defensive as a habit?

YMMV … I have just come out of this long dark tunnel myself

Btw, why do your kids have to ride in draw reins? Does she do the head throw with them, too?

[Reddfox]

Is this from w/c or t/c or both? Typically, if all else checks out normal, I’ve found that head flinging in the canter transition is a result of the horse not being forward enough in the gait before the transition. If the horse isn’t making an honest effort behind, they will pull themselves into the transitions with their shoulders rather than step into it from behind, which means the back hollows and the head comes up. Sometimes this happens because the rider is more interested in making the transition promptly.

The other factor that tends to contribute is loosing the bend, I only do transitions on a 20 meter circle at first, so that I can ensure that the horse doesn’t stiffen against my hand or inside leg.

And thirdly, sometimes if the hand drops down or raises too much in the transition, this will contribute. Usually I’ve been able to fix with establishing a good forward trot, and not worrying about a prompt transition, just the quality- that the horse stays forward and pushing from behind. In tougher cases, I’ve used longing with properly adjusted side reins. I’ve never had to use a martingale or draw reins- and IMO, draw reins will only disconnect your horse more.

[scruffy_the_cat]

Draw reins will just crank the head down but not fix the actual problem, which is most likely coming from your mare’s hind end/lower abs. You’ll create a worse problem that way.

[Foxtrot_s]

I don’t really want to go here but: While it is not desirable to use gadgets as a routine, I do not believe they are a bad thing if used wisely, by a thinking person, just enough to show the horse the way. Draw reins should always be ridden too loose, and just come into play when the horse is out of position.

Better than perpetually working the horse wrong. What happens when someone else with more experience rides the horse?

Saddle fit may play a part. Or lack of balance if the horse is green, or unfit, or not developed.

[arabiansrock]

Horse is turning 14 this year, we have had her since she was 7. Was professionally started, and had professional training off and on while with us. Throws head up even with trainer. Mare IS sluggish, wants to be behind the leg, drives my son CRAZY.

My kids ride her, she is their horse. I only hop on to occasionally cool her out. She doesn’t seem to like me on her. Kids are better riders than I am now anyway. I do get the feeling that she is flinging herself into canter instead of lifting into it. its just NOTHING has helped so far.

I have introduced trot poles to her work routine this week. Our trainer (new) didn’t want to use them before she was reliably forward, eg didn’t want her sucking back over them. I am “hoping” work over poles will strengthen her hindend and help with transitions.

I know the gimmicks are bad, I needed to be slapped for thinking put a bandaid on it and force the issue, was just getting frustrated, that’s why I posted, to get a good kick in the rear and hopefully some ideas we haven’t tried yet.

Going out now, will see how she is tonight.

[aaka208]

[QUOTE=Reddfox;8468818]
Is this from w/c or t/c or both? Typically, if all else checks out normal, I’ve found that head flinging in the canter transition is a result of the horse not being forward enough in the gait before the transition. If the horse isn’t making an honest effort behind, they will pull themselves into the transitions with their shoulders rather than step into it from behind, which means the back hollows and the head comes up. Sometimes this happens because the rider is more interested in making the transition promptly.

The other factor that tends to contribute is loosing the bend, I only do transitions on a 20 meter circle at first, so that I can ensure that the horse doesn’t stiffen against my hand or inside leg.

And thirdly, sometimes if the hand drops down or raises too much in the transition, this will contribute. Usually I’ve been able to fix with establishing a good forward trot, and not worrying about a prompt transition, just the quality- that the horse stays forward and pushing from behind. In tougher cases, I’ve used longing with properly adjusted side reins. I’ve never had to use a martingale or draw reins- and IMO, draw reins will only disconnect your horse more.[/QUOTE]

I agree that this seems like a loss of balance in the transition. I like to start schooling t/c transitions from a leg yield with a little inside bend and sitting in the direction of the motion. If they’re having particular trouble with it I’ll work them over cavaletti on a large circle, first on the lunge (without side reins), and then under saddle. I let them trot in, but I won’t force them to canter out; I’ll let them figure out what to do with their bodies over the course of several training sessions. I’ve never needed draw reins to do this.

[Beentheredonethat]

It is 100% a sign the horse is not on the aids and trying to avoid pushing from begin and self carriage, so flips head to get the transition. My older PSG mare does this with both of her sponsors, and she completely knows better. I had to work with them not to let her manipulate them.

If you can ride well enough, you need to ride the transition and the head carriage separately. The horse needs to be giving and flexing in the contact regardless of what you are asking. That’s you’re number one focus. If you can’t get that straight, get it by leg yielding into it. The focus needs to be to ride the transition moving forward off of the leg, but also making sure the horse always is giving in the contact.

I do not like gadgets. Draw reins will not work as she will drop in the whither. Try a degogue. You can attached it very lightly (it goes between legs, up behind poll, though bit, and back to chest.) It will not do anything unless the head comes up, and stops it by pressure mostly on the poll, but also does not allow the nose to flip out. If she has been doing this for a long time and getting away with it, I’m betting it’s a combination of it’s hard and I don’t want to do it, and I’ve always gotten away with it. the degogue will actually allow you to keep control of her head, which you may not be quick or strong enough to do, and give her a little support until she is strong enough to carry herself better and you can get stronger. This way you can focus more on getting the forward, carrying energy in the transition, and both of you have some extra support to maintain the head carriage until you build the musculature to do it without it. It does’t really have any side effects. It’s the one “device” I will use when needed for a horse.

[flashwhitelock]

[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;8468877]
It is 100% a sign the horse is not on the aids and trying to avoid pushing from begin and self carriage, so flips head to get the transition. My older PSG mare does this with both of her sponsors, and she completely knows better. I had to work with them not to let her manipulate them.

If you can ride well enough, you need to ride the transition and the head carriage separately. The horse needs to be giving and flexing in the contact regardless of what you are asking. That’s you’re number one focus. If you can’t get that straight, get it by leg yielding into it. The focus needs to be to ride the transition moving forward off of the leg, but also making sure the horse always is giving in the contact.

I do not like gadgets. Draw reins will not work as she will drop in the whither. Try a degogue. You can attached it very lightly (it goes between legs, up behind poll, though bit, and back to chest.) It will not do anything unless the head comes up, and stops it by pressure mostly on the poll, but also does not allow the nose to flip out. If she has been doing this for a long time and getting away with it, I’m betting it’s a combination of it’s hard and I don’t want to do it, and I’ve always gotten away with it. the degogue will actually allow you to keep control of her head, which you may not be quick or strong enough to do, and give her a little support until she is strong enough to carry herself better and you can get stronger. This way you can focus more on getting the forward, carrying energy in the transition, and both of you have some extra support to maintain the head carriage until you build the musculature to do it without it. It does’t really have any side effects. It’s the one “device” I will use when needed for a horse.[/QUOTE]

The first sentence says it all. Is it something wrong or just strength that the horse doesn’t want to push off from behind. That alone would raise the red flag that something isn’t right. It might just need strength training but you need a vet who is good at sports medicine to identify it.

[CHT]

My Arab//Dutch cross tends to do this. I have worked to resolve it in two ways:

1. I have her very ahead of my leg…which seemed risky to me at first as she is on the hot/nervous side, but now she understand to respond NOW, she doesn’t have time to hollow out before responding.
2. Ask for the transition in shoulder fore.

[snowrider]

Also a common sign of a saddle that is pinching at the shoulder.

[CFFarm]

If she’s an Arab you know many tend to be high headed and it can be more of a problem with them. I would stop thinking about the head and concentrate more on what her hind quarters and her back are doing. Look to your riding. Make sure she knows and responds to a half halt and practice these throughout the trot. Get the weight rebalanced back to the hindquarters before asking for the canter depart. She has to be connected and on the aids before you ask. Since she’s been going this way for a while it’s no easy task.

[arabiansrock]

Thanks all. Yes she IS arab, chestnut arab mare, need I say more, lol? CHT I think you probably know exactly what we are going thru.

So last night I had my daughter send her FORWARD (which has also been an ongoing challenge, she is def the type to give “just enough” and no more). So last night I said ask for go and if she doesn’t shoot forward give her one BIG crack with the whip to let her know you mean it. Once we had forward, I had my daughter do trot canter trot canter, and she got much sharper on her up transitions, but still threw her head up. But at least she did not fight the transition, so we will keep working on that.

What CHT said about when they are moving forward there is less time to hollow in the transition is def part of her problem, if you try and set her up for canter, eg sit, half halt, ask the hind end to come under, it gives her time and warning to plot how she is going to avoid what is coming. So we will work on forward and trot poles for strengthening.

BTDT - I will look into the degogue, Can they be lunged with this? It really might help her to be lunged to get used to having to use her body differently without the weight/influence of a rider on top so she can just sort out her body.

[merrygoround]

The other component in a transition besides being forward is the use of the hand, which is actually the use of the hand and arm, primarily the elbows. If in an effort to block the tossing head, there is no give in the upward, the horse will hollow.

It is a fine balance between how much to give, and giving too much.

[hldyrhrses]

here is an exercise that I use for horses that do this: Ride a figure 8 with one circle about 20m and one that less than 10 m. Trot the smaller circle- really nudging the horses sides with your legs, esp. your inside leg. (small circle gets hind legs more engaged.) then as you are changing onto the bigger circle and changing your bend, ask for the canter. (Treat it like two circles on top of each other, so don’t go diagonally from small circle to big)

[scruffy_the_cat]

I’m not entirely understanding ground poles causing sucking back. Space them far enough that she has to reach and she won’t be able to suck back. Also forget the contact for a bit. Loose rein, light legs and seat, over lots and lots and lots of poles in all different configurations, always encouraging her to stretch over her back and go forward. I will bet in a few weeks, her canter transitions will be much better.

[SomedaySoon]

My Morgan mare used to do this as well. It took a year+ to fix. As has been mentioned above an unwillingness/inability to use her hind end properly due to lack of strength and balance was part of it. Years of being ridden in an ill-fitting saddle (before I got her) was another. Once we had a saddle that did not pinch her shoulders (it was surprising how far back it really needed to be to clear her shoulders) and didn’t bridge, she became far more willing. BTW, her original trainer did use draw reins and they only masked the problem, because the issues CAUSING the reaction were not addressed. What did work was 1. saddle fit, 2. horse masseuse who loosened up her back and SI and taught me exercises to help strengthen her core and hind end, 3. lots of hill walking to strengthen hind end, 4. lunging, some free-lunging (where, interestingly she always put her head DOWN to p/u the canter, so I knew she could ), then w/o side reins, later with side reins, all to teach her to find her own balance and that canter did not have to = pain. All the suggestions about leg-yielding, circle, etc. were also incorporated, but those four things were how we got started.

[dressagediva22]

Check Saddle fit… By horse did that when my saddle was to narrow

[candico]

For my youngsters that want to be wishy-washy about being on the aids, I like to do a half pirouette at the walk and as soon as you hit the rail in the new direction you ask for the canter. For trot-canter, leg yield to the rail and be sure this develops a nice contact on the outside rein and be sure to briefly close that hand simultaneously with your canter aids. Definitely incorporating some sort of pattern/positioning via such things as figure eights, half circles, helps to keep them on the aids vs la la la trotting bam canter if that makes sense.

The sharpening of the “go” button is most important though. Glad you are addressing that first. It can be painful to watch riders getting very fussy about the head when the simple task of canter “now” is not addressed.

[goeslikestink]

a common fault becuase your horse is not balanced

you need to balance you horse and learn how to use the half halt stride which informs your horse something going to change via a direct signal of command
look here on my helpful links pages its on page 1 scroll down till you find it i explain how to perform the half halt stride
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?178116-helpful-links

schooling matey school your horse a tad go back and school him no gadgets nesscary