Horse won’t canter with a rider, fine on the lunge

[annikaswenson]

Update: uploaded videos
1: free trot

(to find the other videos, just look at my account - I uploaded them all publicly for the time being)

New to the forum, not 100% sure if this is where questions should be posted?

I acquired a 12 year old 15.2hh arab-saddlebred mare about a year ago and we’ve come a long ways from where she started— learning ground manners, teaching her to move forwards, keeping up with her dental, chiro, etc.
She had to be re-trained under saddle due to an issue with her previous owner where she wouldn’t move forwards. She would just stand still and refuse. This could be due to her previous owner being fairly heavy-handed with the bit when she would begin moving forwards, due to the owner’s anxiety— I believe she expects pain now, especially in the canter. I’m working with a great trainer currently but wanted to see if there’s anything I could be missing, or working on improving outside of lessons.
She walks, trots and canters perfectly fine with a saddle and side reins on the lunge but when I get on her (I am about 100 lbs) and ask for canter, she bucks a bit and generally doesn’t tolerate it (ears back, head comes up, things like that.)
My trainer says it’s not a pain issue but more so the expectation of pain due to her past. I’m not sure what I can do to change her mindset about cantering under saddle. Any ideas? TIA!!

[hut-ho78]

It may be the expectation of pain. It may be pain. Hoof angles, saddle fit, kissing spine, hind end issues, Lyme disease, EPM, arthritis, PSSM 1 or 2, lots of things. Good luck.

[Xanthoria]

Well what do the vet and saddle fitter say? If her back is fine and the saddle fits perfectly, then I’d consider having the trainer lunge her with you on top. Will the trainer ride her, to be sure it’s not something you’re doing?

Have you tried cantering in a half seat? Out on the trail? In different saddles?

[beowulf]

Welcome to the forum. Do you have a lunge video as an example? I can understand not wanting to post a riding video on a public forum.

Your first post makes it sound as if there is an underlying pain component. It is anyone’s guess what it is – feet, saddle fit, ulcers, KS, who knows unless you have eyes on the horse while it’s being worked.

[annikaswenson]

It won’t let me post any attachments because i’m a new user, as soon as i’m able to i’ll attach some!

Feet should be good, we have a farrier with a great reputation who has been taking good care of her - i’m not too worried about that, but is there any way to check and see if her feet are causing pain just in case?

We had her in for a lameness exam during the winter because she slipped on ice, we had the vet check for anything else of concern as well. Chiro says she has no back issues, but I know chiros and vets can have different opinions.

We treated her for ulcers when she first came to me and she’s on a preventative supplement at the moment

as for saddle fit, i’ve brought up getting a saddle fitter out a few times to my trainer but she says there’s no need as there’s no bridging, uneven sweat marks, etc. (can’t remember exactly what she said.) When my mare was in my trainers care a few months before I got her, my trainer was able to canter with her after a long period of difficulty… around half a year i think?

Thank you so much for the help, i’ll try and get an attachment posted as soon as it’ll let me!

[strangewings]

Assuming there is no pain and it is just mental, if you are not in any rush, a valid strategy is to just work on the trot under saddle until she offers the canter on her own. This can happen for balance reasons, but also when the trot work gets harder it is sometimes just an evasion. Either way, it will let you know she has decompressed enough from prior handling to be mentally ready to work on it.

[annikaswenson]

Vet checked her during a lameness exam when she slipped on ice early in the winter - we asked if she could do a basic exam to make sure everything is in order, she had no concerns.
I haven’t had a saddle fitter out yet as my trainer says it isn’t necessary, I think it might be a good idea to have one out just in case though?

Most of my lessons have been my trainer lunging her with me on top— the first few times without me giving any aids, and as time progressed i started asking for larger/smaller circles and direction changes - past few lessons have started with me on the line and ended with her just standing in the middle without a line.

my trainer hasn’t ridden her since i’ve gotten her because she doesn’t see it as necessary, I know that she was able to canter with my mare a long while ago after half a year of difficulties. Im thinking of asking her again, just to make sure it’s not my position or anything that’s preventing the canter.

I am not currently riding her outside as I’m trying to keep things consistent, and she’s very spooky outside to the point where there could be some issues. I haven’t really had the opportunity to ride half seat in the canter as she hasn’t offered me the canter yet, but I could try changing my position when asking?

Thanks for your help!! I’ll try and work through all these concerns and hopefully something fixable will stand out

[pluvinel]

I suggest treating her like an unbacked horse.

My go-to system when first introducing a “rider” is to have the horse cart around “Mr. Effigy”…this is a set of long-sleeve coveralls filled with straw and tied to saddle.

Mr. Effigy bounces around, bobs around, flails his “arms” and is used to get the horse used to carting something that is moving on its back. Mr. Effigy also “falls down” around the horse’s hind feet to get them used to not kicking out if a rider falls. I had a friend kicked when she fell backwards.

Basically, you want to make the horse comfortable with “stuff” going on around its body and familiar with movement so that it is not fearful

[Xanthoria]

@annikaswenson

Vet checked her during a lameness exam when she slipped on ice early in the winter - we asked if she could do a basic exam to make sure everything is in order, she had no concerns.

I’d get the vet out and specifically ask them to check her back and neck, and hind end, for any soreness. Ask them if she’s showing any ulcer signs too, and if she should be scoped.

@annikaswenson

I haven’t had a saddle fitter out yet as my trainer says it isn’t necessary, I think it might be a good idea to have one out just in case though?

Yes - your trainer isn’t a saddle fitter I assume? Find the best saddle fitter you can and tell them what’s going on. Try a few different saddles on the horse, even some that don’t seem to make sense technically. You never know what the mare might like. Speaking of which, try some different girths - some horses (mares esp) can be very picky about their girths. And bits. And boots. And on and on… (ask me how I know!)

@annikaswenson

my trainer hasn’t ridden her since i’ve gotten her because she doesn’t see it as necessary, I know that she was able to canter with my mare a long while ago after half a year of difficulties. Im thinking of asking her again, just to make sure it’s not my position or anything that’s preventing the canter.

Yes - ask her. If you’re trying to figure out if it’s pain, saddle or you causing the issue, this is a critical step.

[Xanthoria]

@annikaswenson

I haven’t really had the opportunity to ride half seat in the canter as she hasn’t offered me the canter yet, but I could try changing my position when asking?

Trot in two point (with a neck strap or a handful of mane if needed) and then just ask her to canter on from there.

@annikaswenson

When my mare was in my trainers care a few months before I got her, my trainer was able to canter with her after a long period of difficulty… around half a year i think?

If the trainer took 6 months to get the mare cantering, what was the problem and how did she fix it?

[Snow_Mass]

Simple question but will she canter on the lunge with you in a 2 point position completely off her back?

You might think I’m crazy but I’ve seen this work twice on horses that had really bad starts and were un-ridable - and, it works best when the person is small like you at 100 lbs. You do need to be brave and mobile to do this and obviously, a person you trust on the end of the lunge line.
At the walk and trot, stand with your inside foot in the stirrup along the side of the horse. You’ll be standing straight up on the horse’s side like a trick rider. Add a neck strap for extra security. Get comfortable swinging yourself back in and out of the saddle - back into the standing on the inside stirrup position. Then try the canter standing on the inside stirrup - if she’s good, swing your leg over the saddle - if she’s not, swing back to the standing position.
Good luck - you’ve given her a lot of good, hopefully you can get through this challenge too.

[Paint_Party]

@strangewings

Assuming there is no pain and it is just mental, if you are not in any rush, a valid strategy is to just work on the trot under saddle until she offers the canter on her own.

You’ve gotten some great tips but wanted to add that this ^^^ is the tactic I’m using on a sensitive 3/4 Thoroughbred filly I work with. She was rushed too fast and since she’s kind of hot and sensitive, it fried her brain. Plus, the gal who started her used too harsh of a bit, so the filly was resentful of my leg and would flip her head with any amount of rein contact.

Oh joy, right? But she’s a gorgeous horse, a fabulous mover and basically very sweet, so I agreed to take her on as a project.

After total clearance of health and soundness issues, I started her all over again in a smooth snaffle and long lines. The ground driving really helped her to learn to go forward without sucking back from the bit. Once I got on, it took me about a month of walk and trot only in the round pen, just teaching her to go forward from my leg and not be afraid of my hands. Then we started walking and trotting in the arena.

It’s been about 3 months and I am just now starting to canter. Not gallop flat out. Canter. It’s taken her that long to develop the strength, self-carriage and connection to me so that cantering comes naturally.

However… if your trainer feels strongly that you and your horse should be, or need to be, cantering right now, then I’d ask her to climb aboard and demonstrate how she gets your horse to canter. Like, a step-by-step explanation as to how she’s using her aids, what she’s feeling from your horse, etc. She should also clearly point out any faults she sees in your position or use of your aids that might be thwarting your efforts to canter. Simply repeating the same unsuccessful methods over and over again will only frustrate and confuse both you and your horse.

[annikaswenson]

Thank you so much!! You sharing a similar experience (that you found success with) really helps put things into perspective

[luvmyhackney]

Set up a baby cross rail and trot forward and go over it, chances are she will pick up the canter when she comes out on the other side and lots of pats when she does.

[MapleBreeze]

Of course check pain and saddle fit…
But if shes an arab saddlebred she must have one hell of a neck that makes things difficult.
Id love to see a confo pic.
Is it tied in low?
Thats going to really affect the shoulders and the balance. How’s her lateral work?
Youd have to really put her in the correct balance to get that canter under saddle…

Is the rider asking for too much contact or trying to chase the horse onto the forehand to get the canter?

If its not saddlefit then youre probably fixing shoulders then hindend and or rider…

[outerbanks77]

It’s unclear whether the horse will canter with you on top and the trainer lunging with you as a passenger. If that is possible, I would just do that consistently and slowly take over control of the ride. If she won’t canter at all with a rider up but taking commands from the ground, I’d pursue more physical causes.

The idea of a little crossrail is also good. Sometimes asking for canter after going over a few trot poles works.

More detail about what is happening when you attempt to canter would help as well - you mention she bucks - What is it like, and how do you react to that? I’ve been in a struggle for canter with my mare for a long time, and her thing is that she starts feeling out of balance and flinging herself around, so cantering around corners was a problem for a while. She had trouble holding her leads and would swap in back. Getting the balance better in the trot has helped, teaching her how to move her body parts so I can help her balance more once we are cantering. My trainer told me “you have to just sit up there and act like you don’t even notice what’s happening” which was easier said than done, but has worked to help her figure out her legs and balance and in the process, be much happier to canter.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I’m a little surprised your trainer doesn’t think it’s necessary for her to hop on even for a few laps after having such a longstanding issue with this problem. Even if you’re a very experienced rider, it seems like good practice (after eliminating physical causes and saddle fit) to see if another rider has the same issue.

Also, if the original owner (from what you’ve described) had a bad relationship with the horse, it’s also possible she asked for the canter in a way that is rather eccentric/not good practice and the horse is confused.

Also agree that saddle fit might be more of an issue than suspected.

[hopashore1]

My horse who I have in pretty regular work and have ridden up through I-1 was recently used in a lesson so another rider (1st-ish level) could get a feel for what the turn on the haunches was supposed to feel like.

She was fine in the walk and trot, but my horse just completely did not understand her canter aids. I’ve cantered many other horses (including the horse this student is leasing), so I don’t think I do anything totally weird, but my horse does not get ridden often at all by others and her balance was just different enough that he was confused, he would offer a bit of a medium trot, she would get more off balance, he would halt, rinse and repeat. I got on partway through the lesson and he cantered immediately when asked, so it wasn’t physical discomfort on that day. It took a lot of attempts and helping the rider adjust her balance before he offered the canter. It was fascinating to watch.

It may just be that how you are asking under saddle is so different from what the horse understands to be the under saddle canter aids that the horse needs some extra help. I agree with a small cross rail and really lightening your seat (think two-point, but you don’t often have to actually go there) as two successful strategies to help her back move in the correct way.

[Salty]

This is how I introduce canter to the baby horses. Good luck!

[WildGooseChase]

When you’ve had your saddle professionally fitted, I would be eager to find out if you could have someone lunge you under saddle, to see if maybe she feels you’re getting in her way. Have the person on the ground ask for the canter instead of you cuing for it. If she goes off with no fuss, it could be something about the cue she doesn’t appreciate.

Contrary to your trainers belief, sweat marks and not seeing any bridging doesn’t mean your saddle fits. Have the fitter out.