Horse's flat work much better in jumping bit than Dressage bit

[cranky]

My mare’s flat work has improved quite a bit over the past couple of years, I really have made a concentrated effort specifically on this. Where she used to be somewhat hollow, head in the air, incorrect bend and behind the leg, these days she is generally forward, quick off the leg, reaches for contact and is willing to work from behind.

Being a re-rider who took over twenty years off from riding, I have my own challenges and have really needed to work on balance and learning again to work off my seat and my legs. It’s a work in process and I am still pretty crooked.

Anyway, I am finding flat work seems to come much easier with her jumping bit, a Happy Mouth 2-ring elevator. With her Dressage bit (currently a Happy Mouth jointed boucher) the contact and (for lack of a better term) “roundness” doesn’t seem to come nearly as easily. We can get there, but it seems to happen much more easily and naturally with her jumping bit.

I am sure the leverage of the jumping bit is a factor here, as are my own limitations or suckage as a rider. But it’s a bit frustrating when everything seems to come together so nicely with one bit, but just doesn’t with the other (FWIW, I have also tried her in an eggbutt snaffle, and a french link loose ring). Any ideas of what I might look for in our flat work to work towards what we seem to be able to accomplish with ease with the jumping bit?

[Meredith_Clark]

You could try her in a baucher and then try to eventually try to ween her back to a simpler snaffle.

[Winding_Down]

http://www.smartpakequine.com/myler-level-23-mullen-barrel-low-port-loose-ring-11680p?cm_sp=RVP--ProductClass--Myler_Level_2-3_Mullen_Barrel_Low_Port_Loose_Ring&cm_vc=RecentlyViewed

is a good bit to transition to a plain loose ring. It adds a bit more control.

[saje]

That’s what she’s already using:

@cranky;7407463

Anyway, I am finding flat work seems to come much easier with her jumping bit, a Happy Mouth 2-ring elevator. With her Dressage bit (currently a Happy Mouth jointed boucher) the contact and (for lack of a better term) “roundness” doesn’t seem to come nearly as easily. We can get there, but it seems to happen much more easily and naturally with her jumping bit.

Have you tried riding in the jumping bit but putting the reins on the mouthpiece ring and not the lower ring? There may be something about that specific bit she likes better, or subconsciously there may be a difference in the way you ride with it. Is it on a different bridle? That can have an effect too.

The other thing you can do is to put two reins on it for schooling. Use the snaffle rein as much as possible, add a touch of the “curb” if you’re getting resistance you can’t push through or soften. As she builds strength you can start switching back and forth with he regular snaffle.

Also, remember that a round neck doesn’t always equal a round body, and she can be working well through her back with her head up a bit. Lots of suppling exercises can help.

Do you have a regular instructor or 'eyes on the ground" ?

[cranky]

That’s an interesting idea, to change the ring the reins are on. I just might give that a try! Yes, I do take regular weekly lessons and during the Winter my trainer arranges for a monthly Dressage judge to give lessons for those who are interested. I take advantage of these as much as I can (have one scheduled next weekend).

The bridles are technically different but pretty similar: Wellfleet Dressage and Wellfleet Eventer.

I understand that the round neck doesn’t necessarily equal a round body, but there are a lot of other clues that go along with the ease with her elevator. The overall experience is much more harmonious, she is less lightly to muscle through a bend, in general everything seems to come much easier and organically. In our Winter barn there is a mirror and I can tell that she is through her back when she is reaching for the contact, it is not just the arch in her neck.

Winding Down, thanks for the suggestion of the bit with the port. Is that Dressage legal?

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Sure it is easier, it is more bit, but it rarely is correct. I think it it far to easy to fake it and I’d be concerned riding too much from the front end in such a bit. Personally, you do not get them more through by focusing on the front end. So unless you are having serious issues, I would not be switching your bits to something with leverage for flat work.

[Huntin_Pony]

An elevator bit and a Baucher have totally different actions. The elevator has a gag action, thus puts most pressure on the (upper) corners of the horse’s mouth/lips. The Baucher puts poll pressure and bar pressure. It is not surprising that the horse reacts differently.

I agree with the idea of riding in the elevator using the main ring. You might also try putting the cheek pieces of your bridle on that ring too if you can keep the upper ring from rubbing. If any of that works, switch to a Happy Mouth double jointed loose ring.

[retreadeventer]

I know that in my own horses, when I am using a stronger bit but switch to a milder bit, and can’t get the same responses, it’s not the bit, it’s me. I am riding too much from the hand and not enough from the seat and leg. I am riding the horse on the forehand and not in enough balance if I need the stronger bit. That’s just me and my own experience, may not work for anyone else.

[Foxtrot_s]

While thoroughly agreeing that one has to work from behind, I’m not opposed to using something that ‘will show the horse the way’ from a rider who does not have the advanced skills. If a horse is always above the bit, it is hard for a less experienced rider to make progress, and the horse becomes confirmed in going the wrong way. It is not classic, but is done a lot. Just be aware of what you are doing…

[JackieBlue]

Maybe I’m old fashioned, but I won’t ride in any leveraged bit without a snaffle rein. If a horse is ridden in a wonder-type bit, with multiple rings, in my opinion, there should always be 2 reins - one on the main ring, and one on the desired leverage ring. Otherwise, there is never a “right answer” for the horse. There is never a release from the poll pressure/corner of the mouth lift combo. Every turn, every half halt, every single rein pressure applied is leveraged. There’s no way to say, “Yes, you’re being soft and responsive and don’t need the gag action now. Good Horsie.” So…it’s simply a gadget, and not a very kind one without 2 reins. Now, with a snaffle rein, it becomes a training device. You can completely get off the leveraged action when the horse gives you what you want, thereby reinforcing those “answers”. Not to mention how much more pleasant the overall ride must be if not every rein cue involves leveraged pressure on the head.
OP, your horse rounds her neck right up in her jumping bit because every rein cue from you lifts the corners of her mouth and presses down on her poll. Every, single one. But keep in mind, just because she rounds her neck doesn’t mean she’s using her back, using impulsion, pushing from behind and carrying herself. And the best clue that she’s NOT doing those things in her jumping bit? The fact that she doesn’t do those things in her dressage bit. Because it’s not her bit that makes or allows her to carry herself. And when she really learns to use herself, the bit in her mouth won’t make a big difference in her way of going. I’d worry less about the bit and more about forward impulsion and straightness, whether jumping or schooling on the flat, and I’d put a snaffle rein on that multi-ring bit no matter when you use it.

[fermecinqsens]

The reason she ![](s “round” in the elevator bit is because of the leverage.
The reason she is not “round” in a regular snaffle is because clearly she does not actually understand contact (and you are not riding with proper contact).

Using an elevator bit to “make” the horse “round” is the same as using side reins, draw reins, pessoa system, chambon, whatever, to “make” the horse “round”. NONE of these things actually do anything constructive - they simply make the horse learn to evade pressure by pulling the horse’s nose backwards. This creates a horse who is generally behind the vertical, sometimes behind the bit, and almost always the poll is not the highest point.
Teaching the horse to bring its nose back towards you is exactly why riders get stuck riding horses in strong bits and/or martingales because it completely un-trains the half-halt. This teaches the horse “when you hit the pressure, curl your neck” instead of “when you hit the pressure, slow down”.

It is only with a forward hand that the horse can truly be “on the bit”; not by riding with a backwards hand and pulling the head back towards your body.

Correct (achieved by riding back-to-front):
[IMG]http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/behind_the_vertical/on_the_bit_trot.jpg)
[IMG]http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/behind_the_vertical/badturngood.jpg)

VS what we normally see (achieved by riding front-to-back):
[IMG]http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/behind_the_vertical/trakehner.jpg)
[IMG]http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/behind_the_vertical/macho4.gif)
[IMG]http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/behind_the_vertical/kyra_amiral_btv_strung_out.jpg)

[Lady_Eboshi]

40 years ago, the horse was considered to be showing a correct contact NOT when he was bearing against the hand with weight or force, but rather when he had a relaxed flexion of both jaw and poll, normally accompanied by a quiet “chewing” when you pick up the reins, after which the bit is “carried” quietly in the mouth without resistance or evasion.

At the same period of time, a rider was considered to have “good hands” if s/he had an independent enough seat never to need to balance or retain position by means of the reins. With this skill normally came the privilege of riding in a Pelham or full bridle, which was considered an instrument of communication far superior to a plain snaffle, which was mostly for early schooling or the racecourse; few were those who hunted or showed in snaffles.

That a horse can be ridden (read, cranked) back-to-front with a leverage bit is beyond question; and that is in all cases to be avoided of course. But many, many horses, in particular TB’s or QH’s, either have other connotations with the snaffle (lean on it and RUN!) or simply fail to respect it or understand it. With these, there is no reason not to school in your jumping bit PROVIDED you are honest with yourself that you are riding forward and straight with throughness.

The only time you are required to use the test-legal bit is when you are actually in your test–which for most of us is about 0.00001% of our time in the saddle!

References: Gordon Wright, George Morris, Vladimir Littauer, practically anyone French.

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=retreadeventer;7408516]
I know that in my own horses, when I am using a stronger bit but switch to a milder bit, and can’t get the same responses, it’s not the bit, it’s me. I am riding too much from the hand and not enough from the seat and leg. I am riding the horse on the forehand and not in enough balance if I need the stronger bit. That’s just me and my own experience, may not work for anyone else.[/QUOTE]

Well said!!! The answer is not in the bit but in the hands and arms at the other end of the bit! And the body’s ability to downshift and rebalance without going to the reins.

And, this will carry forward into your jumping!

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=zorse;7446026]

Using an elevator bit to “make” the horse “round” is the same as using side reins, draw reins, pessoa system, chambon, whatever, to “make” the horse “round”. NONE of these things actually do anything constructive - they simply make the horse learn to evade pressure by pulling the horse’s nose backwards.[/QUOTE]

I agree with your assessment of most of these tools except for the chambon. The chambon, used when lungeing, does not create a backwards action but instead (when used correctly) encourages the horse to put his head and neck forward and down. It is the only one of these “gadgets” that can really encourage the horse to use itself correctly (on the lunge).

Sorry for the slight derailment; back to the original discussion.

[Bogie]

@Huntin'

The Baucher puts poll pressure and bar pressure. It is not surprising that the horse reacts differently.

A baucher does not exert poll pressure – this is a common misconception. There is no fulcrum like there is in an elevator bit. Because of the way the baucher attaches to the cheek pieces, it is a bit that sits very still in a horse’s mouth. Horses that don’t like the movement of a loose ring often go better in a baucher. I had a horse that I rode in it and believe me, if there had been any poll pressure I would have known because any poll pressure at all would make him go straight up.

I would try using your jumping bit with two reins and wean yourself off the bottom ring over time. Start thinking about using your body (legs/seat) to half halt so that you are not depending on your bit as much.

One of the things I find helpful if I think I’m using my hands too much is to use a neck strap (can be a stirrup leather). Slip a finger through that and you will have to keep you hands quiet and use your seat more.

At least for me, if I’m using too much hand, I’m usually not using enough leg.

If I feel my horse getting heavy, I will do a ton of transitions – both between gaits and within them. That usually helps develop more of a connection and engages the hind end.

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7408340]
Sure it is easier, it is more bit, but it rarely is correct. I think it it far to easy to fake it and I’d be concerned riding too much from the front end in such a bit. Personally, you do not get them more through by focusing on the front end. So unless you are having serious issues, I would not be switching your bits to something with leverage for flat work.[/QUOTE]

Exactly %100. Invest in a good dressage trainer to help, not a new bit.

[fermecinqsens]

[QUOTE=Tradewind;7446215]
I agree with your assessment of most of these tools except for the chambon. The chambon, used when lungeing, does not create a backwards action but instead (when used correctly) encourages the horse to put his head and neck forward and down. It is the only one of these “gadgets” that can really encourage the horse to use itself correctly (on the lunge).

Sorry for the slight derailment; back to the original discussion.[/QUOTE]

Yes, sorry, I should have pointed that out. My guess, however, is that many people DON’T use them properly and do not only use them to lunge. I like to stay clear of ALL gadgetry if possible.

[JackieBlue]

A properly made Baucher (which many are not) certainly does exert poll pressure. And any bit, Baucher, loose ring or otherwise can only sit as still as the rider’s hands

[Hobbs]

A properly made Baucher (which many are not) certainly does exert poll pressure. And any bit, Baucher, loose ring or otherwise can only sit as still as the rider’s hands

Someone needs a physics lesson. Read up on leverage and levers.

http://bitbankaustralia.wordpress.com/2012/05/03/the-truth-about-the-baucher-snaffle-bit-rattling-the-cage/

[Jeannette_formerly_ponygyrl]

One thing to check and play with - in the stronger bit, you probably get a quicker response to the rein portion of a “whoa” request, so you may well be quicker to soften the rein, which is good. It is easy to end up “hanging” on the rein when we don’t get the response - and then the hanging prevents the hind leg from stepping under, so they can’t get round and soften.

One of Steinkraus’ aphorisms is “Use an aid and put it back.” Easier said than done sometimes, but essential.
Setting your requests up so it is clear that there is meaning to each aid, AND that there is release/reward/softening after each aid teaches the alphabet so that the horse can then understand the phrases “step under” and “don’t run/flatten.”