Horses That Kick Out During Unplanned Dismounts - A Discussion

[Blueeyedroan]

I’m as guilty as they come… addicted to the short reels on Facebook. In the few spare moments life awards me, I can’t be bothered with tv. But I can absolutely be bothered by Facebook’s targeted reels, which are always horsey. Frequently narrowed down to breaking/broncing/and people getting absolutely piled.
I am ALARMED at the number of videos that feature people getting thrown by horses who then kick out at them while they are falling, or already on the ground. With a decent number of them successfully connecting.
If the horse in question is a rank mustang that some cowboy is jumping on in a round pen and the thing is terrified, or just plain offended, I can see that being a predictable and excusable outcome. But most of these seem to be very broke, very seasoned horses. Or green but absolutely spoiled and naughty.

I have been breaking horses for a long time. Everything from ponies, warmbloods, reserve herd ferals, restarting OTTBS, hopping on auction horses with no history and hoping for the best, and can confidently say I have NEVER EVER had a horse kick at me as I’m coming off. Not even once. Not even been stepped on. And I have come off many many times.

I can tell you with absolute authority if one of my mares booted me as i’m in a pile on the ground, their next trip would be to the local livestock scale where I would be paid out by the pound and that’s where their story would end. They would not be sold. Instant game-over.
That said - I listen to my mares. If they all of a sudden threaten to unload me or start acting strange, they are acknowledged and I listen to what they are saying. They do not need to ramp up their reactions before I start asking what’s wrong, and I don’t just assume my normally VERY good mares are just “being naughty”. I maintain a relationship with them and have the occasional groundwork day in a round pen to make sure boundaries are still respected and well established. They respect me, and I respect them.

What is your opinion on this behavior? What do you recon causes it? And what would you do if it happened to you?
How much of this is pain related, lesson horses who absolutely hate their life and riders VS poor training and ill-mannered horses?

Interested to hear what you have to say!

[endlessclimb]

I think a large majority of them are not doing it to be naughty. Some horses have a visceral reaction to kick when they’re frightened by something on the side or behind.

They’re not used to seeing someone there, plus the act of falling off likely made the saddle feel awfully weird, legs where legs don’t normally go, spurs where spurs shouldn’t be, it all happens so fast, wtf is that hanging off my side WHOA it’s coming by my legs!! kick

I can see my young pony mare making this mistake. She’s the type that will fire first and ask questions later. It’s a work in progress, she is getting way better about it, but the scariness of someone falling off certainly could cause a regression.

[Simkie]

I think the reason you don’t see this:

@Blueeyedroan

I am ALARMED at the number of videos that feature people getting thrown by horses who then kick out at them while they are falling, or already on the ground. With a decent number of them successfully connecting.

Is because of this:

@Blueeyedroan

I listen to my mares. If they all of a sudden threaten to unload me or start acting strange, they are acknowledged and I listen to what they are saying. They do not need to ramp up their reactions before I start asking what’s wrong, and I don’t just assume my normally VERY good mares are just “being naughty”. I maintain a relationship with them and have the occasional groundwork day in a round pen to make sure boundaries are still respected and well established. They respect me, and I respect them.

Good training with proper progression makes for boring looking rides. Just toss a saddle on a horse that doesn’t know wtf is going on? That’s going to be exciting!

The horse isn’t bad. Just confused and scared and overwhelmed.

[beowulf]

So much of this might boil down to the situation, the training, the instinct of the horse. Kicking out at a predator is a bona fide survival mechanic.

Generally I find kicking out at a human unspeakably rude. Sometimes when they are bolting or $hit hits the fan, they’re in survival mode and the best way to get a predator off their back is to buck and kick. They might not mean it. But I have seen some mean it. And those I agree with you, those have to go.

Some horses are legitimately scared when their rider gets unsettled and accidentally hit them during departure. That can make things all the worse and validate their fear response and give them a reason to kick.

I believe most horses try their very best to avoid hitting or stepping on their rider. I can’t tell you if that is altruism or if it is just preference to not get their legs tangled up – in of itself a survival mechanic burned into their brain – but it is appreciated.

Sometimes things don’t happen how you, the rider, think they happened either. Can’t tell you how many explosions I’ve witnessed that the rider said “came out of the blue” that I saw brewing. And sometimes, riders have an inflated sense of the horse’s efforts to dislodge them. I’ve seen a horse mildly crowhop and dislodge its rider who was texting, who then told the barn the horse “took off in a bucking fit”.

Most of those reels, I think a seasoned horse person can see them coming. Like you said some riders need a class on observing horse body language and telling when a horse has simply told you it’s had enough.

[endlessclimb]

Another example of a visceral kick -

Another mare I owned and I were hand grazing around harvest time. A corn stalk blew to her and up her leg, and she kicked at it like it had bit her. She just wasn’t paying attention and it scared her, and all she saw was “scary unknown thing by my leg”.

[Kyrabee]

I agree with endlessclimb. The kicking most likely is instinct. Nothing more. Now I am sure there are a few plotters out there…how can I get the human but I think that is rare.

I know the times I have come off my mare (and no, she hasn’t kicked out) she was more scared by my falling off than whatever spooky thing initiated the spook (in her younger days is was more likely an 8-10 foot sideways teleport ). The horse that usually is glued to me…I don’t even need a lead rope most of the time…is outta there if I fall off. I have even worked with her rolling one of those big balls off her butt but no, it isn’t the same. One time, she leaped in the air (first time out in a big group). That got her off balance and rather than fall with the horse on top of me, I bailed and rolled up in a little ball. She danced around and other than grazing my kneecap, managed to miss me but then she took off…even with a group of horses there.

Kicking out at a predator is just what they do…they can’t reason that it was their rider that hit the dirt. In that moment I believe it is all predator vs prey in their little brains.

Susan

[Blueeyedroan]

I think a kick DURING the fall can be chalked up to instinct, in some cases. The horses that buck you off, spin around, and then boot you as you’re sitting there… I think that’s directed. The horse could just run off at that point. To turn, aim, fire? I question that.

[Simkie]

The flight or fight reaction is generally not a thoughtful process. It’s visceral. Lizard brain. Freak out a horse enough, and they’ll flee or fight.

That doesn’t really reflect on the horse but how badly you’ve freaked them out. Fleeing or fighting are two sides of the same “survival” coin.

[GraceLikeRain]

Same.

If I come off in a flap of flailing arms or a snappy windbreaker, I could understand a lower confidence horse having the genuine snot scared out of them.

My current ride has only had two unplanned riders dismounts in 11 years. Both times the rider landed in their feet but she still had a hard spook and instinct to react very fearfully.

The videos of a horse seeming to aim at a rider already down or where their body language looks angry rather than fearful really scare me. That would be a permanent trust breaker for me if I came off on video and saw my horse take aim with calm calculation.

[mmeqcenter]

Personally, I’ve never seen a horse deliberately kick out at a rider while falling/after falling off. I’m sure it happens, but I’ve just never seen it. I would imagine your algorithm is just showing you a lot of those videos because of one or two you watched originally, but it doesn’t mean that it’s as common of an occurrence as the number of videos you get suggests. Reel algorithms are annoying AF. Watching one video about a chicken coop doesn’t mean I want to see 5000 more. It’s like the targeted ads, where you buy a toilet seat and then get four ads a day for toilet seats. How many toilet seats does AI think we need??
Plus, people post videos that will get views. To get views, the video has to be exciting. Non-horse people don’t care about your perfect walk-canter transition, but they sure will laugh at, or be shocked by, someone getting bucked off. For sake of a larger audience for more views, I imagine there’s an inordinate number of kicking-out videos compared to how often it actually happens in real life.

@Simkie

Good training with proper progression makes for boring looking rides. Just toss a saddle on a horse that doesn’t know wtf is going on? That’s going to be exciting!

Also this.

[tabula_rashah]

You look very different as heap on the ground and I’m guessing you look a lot more predator like that way too, esp in the midst of what is most likely a higher stress situation. No matter how much we work with a horse, a horse is still a big, strong, prey animal with survival instincts. Show me a horse that will 100% never kick and I’ll sell you a bridge in Brooklyn.

on a separate note, I’m working with a bad, bad kicker right now. Totally not her fault, Amish bred and “trained”, sold as a supposed 4 year old with lots of road driving experience . Turns out she’s 2 going on 3 per vet and dental (my assessment also). Got a list a mile long of why her hind end is an immediate weapon anytime you go near her

[Spudsmyguy]

We had a horse that would actively try to hurt you. We hadn’t had him that long and I took him out and tied him to the trailer to tack up. He threw an absolute tantrum for about 10 minutes while I prudently stayed out of his way until it blew over. Then he sees me watching and angles his rear end toward me and cocks a hind foot and is checking over his shoulder waiting for me to come within striking range. I brought my lunge whip out and did manage to tack him without getting killed, got on and he refused to go forward and was messing around with his front feet. Well, he was about to go up on two legs so I got off and put him on the lunge and after about two circuits he pulled away and kicked out. If I hadn’t stepped aside at the moment, I would have been killed. I felt the air on my face as his hoof went past it. He went to France on a hook and I feel zero remorse.

[Calvincrowe]

Horses cannot plot or plan. They literally live in the moment. Kicking is instinctual and reflexive. You are a threat of some sort, you’ve “attacked”, you’ve startled, you’ve begun the flight or fight cycle and since we tie up, pen up, tack up a horse, the fight response comes first.

I’m sure some horses have learned that fighting gets them a response they want (human off back) or the pain they are in is better when human is not involved.

[beowulf]

@Spudsmyguy

He went to France on a hook and I feel zero remorse.

Heard that called a ‘french vacation’. In hindsight, I feel sorry for them as I think many were just communicating how unhappy or in pain they were. Being in the horse industry for decades I can count on one hand only the number of horses I thought were genuinely malicious, the rest I think were trying to communicate in every way they knew how. For a long time I didn’t think there were bad horses, just bad management practices - but I did have one boarder that to this day I can’t explain the feeling of relief I felt when I saw his trailer’s tail-lights pull out of the driveway for the last time.

@Calvincrowe I agree with your post but raise you one Holden who most certainly plots to how best to dupe his handler into thinking he hasn’t moved an inch while gradually gravitating towards the feed shed. He will wait until I go into the tack shed, check the coast is clear, and take one mincey step forward. Before I know it he will have moved 10 feet with a look on his face that wouldn’t melt butter. Horse philosophy – if a human isn’t there to see it, does it really happen? He made me realize I’ve underestimated equine intelligence for a long time.

[RedHorses]

My QH used to do that in reverse. While standing at the in gate watching the previous horse do their round, my QH would shift his weight. By the end of the other horse’s round my QH was a horse length or more further away from the in gate than where we started!

As for the original question, I think the horse kicking out clips are the ones that get views and are a very skewed representation of what’s happening in real life.

[fivestrideline]

@RedHorses

As for the original question, I think the horse kicking out clips are the ones that get views and are a very skewed representation of what’s happening in real life.

Yep. Non-horsey people like and share them for the dramatics, horsey people comment in sympathy or outrage - well, non-horse people also comment in outrage, but it’s the shocking clips that get traction.

To be fair, this happens in a lot of sports. There’s whole YouTube accounts dedicated to race car crashes, mountain bike fails, heck even ‘kids getting hurt’. I remember Thrills and Spills compilations going around for Rolex and stuff like that. Something about it draws people’s attention, and the algorithm likes attention.

[cilla1]

My actual horse will likely kick in that situation, he has already done it. He’s not naughty and he doesn’t want to hurt, proof is he would run away and kick but then come immediately back to check if I’m ok - Girl, what are you doing down there? I told you to hold on tight!!! Lol

It’s just his lizard brain, luckily I don’t come off that often and he hit me just once (when I wasn’t riding anyway, he got scared, he ran away and side kicked and I was on the foot’s path)

[sophie]

I knew a horse that bucked his riders off, then aimed and kicked at them. Beautiful SF gelding with great papers, jumping machine.
When we students got assigned to him we knew we had to stay on at all costs.
He never got me off, but he broke a friend’s arm that way, I saw it happen, he gave a huge buck, his rider ended up landing on his feet behind him, the horse looked, backed up a bit and kicked him right in the arm.
Instructor’s comment? " You should have stuck that buck".
Yeah, we got no pity whatsoever from our instructors, back then…
And no, that horse was not sent to the killers, as he was such a nice ride if you had a velcro seat.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@sophie

When we students got assigned to him we knew we had to stay on at all costs.
He never got me off, but he broke a friend’s arm that way, I saw it happen, he gave a huge buck, his rider ended up landing on his feet behind him, the horse looked, backed up a bit and kicked him right in the arm.
Instructor’s comment? " You should have stuck that buck".
Yeah, we got no pity whatsoever from our instructors, back then…
And no, that horse was not sent to the killers, as he was such a nice ride if you had a velcro seat.

I know for some people those are “the good old days of lessons,” but for me, I’m glad that type of instructor is becoming less common.

On the other hand, I would never judge a horse that kicked out after I had an involuntary dismount. It would never occur to me it’s malicious, no more than a horse that kicked out at a fly. When a rider comes off, it’s a strange sensation, and it’s a natural reaction for many horses to kick out when that occurs. There are some who will just stand there, wondering “what the hell happened,” looking at you on the ground, but just like I don’t think that’s necessarily always tender concern, I also don’t think kicking out at a weird shift in weight on your back means the horse has a vendetta against all humans.

As well as the algorithm issue, I’ll also say that the way a video is cut or the angle of the film, slowed down, or whatever, can make something look more intentional than it really is.

[endlessclimb]

I think people need to spend more time doing weird weight shifts in the saddle on purpose, to desensitize the horse to them.

Just me leaning forward or backwards can get a little ooooOOOOO!!! butt scoot reaction out of Grundy. We practice it all the time so that she eventually (hopefully) will lose the sensitivity to it.