Hot, hot, HOT TB/Connemara - what bit/bridle?

[Joyrider]

Hi!

I am a long time horse professional. Yes, we flat. Yes, we work on conventional excersises to make hony listen. I am looking for some new ideas for this horse. Hony sized jumper - done WEF at 3’ with a good (and gutsy) child rider. My adult client now has this mount and loves her to pieces.

There is an emotional component to this - adult is very, very experienced but has some physical infirmaties and some confidence issues. Adult feels 100% safe on this rocket (I think being a hony helps). Hony is difficult to ride. Her gaits are as follows: jigs, running trot, gallop, gallop-in-place like pepe le pew.

Hony is go, go GO~! It will jump anything from anywhere. It is rateable and will listen to your distance of choice (just with its legs going a mile a minute). There is no “soften and release” on this hony. All of it’s rate is in your hand. Having said that, it is not strong necessarily in the conventional sense.

Anyway - a variety of mild to slow twist snaffle bits, a vulcanite rubber mullen mouth pelham, a hackamore, and a bitless (yowsa! not enough!), have been tried. Hony will run through the milder bits and/or tuck her head or flip her head in the stronger bits (and keep running). We haven’t found the right thing for the adult to ride her in where she can feel she can rate the pony. I can rate the pony but I do have to work at it! Adult needs something a notch more. Ideas?

Thanks!

[Bluey]

How long have you had that horse around?
Those horses tend to get better with training.
Needs more training, more work but slower work, many transitions fast then long and low.

I too liked those horses, but you have to find a job for them, one hour a day is not going to cut it.

I had one such, best I could tell, half arabian half paint, with such a type squirrel brain that would never sit still more than a minute.
I used him to pony colts, for a circle horse and roping, not for closeup work.
He thrived with hours of doing something, eventually even slow, he was happy just because he was doing something.

As a pet horse for an older rider that won’t ride much, maybe not the best horse to keep everyone happy?

I would try to start over like a colt and see where you get with long and low.

We had several of those that made great endurance horses.
They kept on going and going and going.

[CatchMeIfUCan]

Love this bit. It is pretty mild but gives more control. I use it on my young horse who needs help in the turns. Nose, poll, then mouth pressure.

[CrowneDragon]

I am not one who frowns on the use of strong or creative bits for certain circumstances, but I don’t think that this is one of them. If the horse’s problem is being hot and reactive, the bit won’t fix that. A step back in training to calm and slow things down and learn how to soften and rate is required. I’d find whatever bit the horse is comfortable in and go in that. I had to do this with one of my current horses who came off the track with electric sides and a strong desire to jump out from under me at a moment’s notice. He’d be lathered after 5 minutes of work. He goes in a plastic imitation Happy Mouth with a roller in the middle, and learned to balance himself, calm down, and wait after weeks and weeks of slowing, circling, walking, softening, walking, waiting, walking, softening, circling, circling, circling… One of the only bits I’ve found that he’s quiet in the mouth with and not trying to evade. You may have to do some of that work, if the owner is nervous. Having a pistol that wants to start running off over fences or is squirreling around underneath you can be unnerving.

Good luck.

[CrowneDragon]

If you look up Lucinda Green videos, you can also get some good tips. Example: http://vimeo.com/22623341

[hunterboulevard]

Have you tried a combination bit, where it uses both poll pressure and a bit? It may help a little.

I also rode a horse a few weeks ago similar to what you described, she went in an interesting bit I can’t describe, but was similar to the myler bit with the rope noseband, only we attached a rain to the noseband so I had control over the pressure.

I would also suggest giving Brad (http://www.equusport.com/category.php?category_id=45) an email with what you described. Whenever we have problems bitting a horse he usually solves our problem. I don’t think he does trials, but he can find a way to make just about anything.

[Ruth0552]

1. Have you tried any martingales? 2. What is the mini-dragon eating?

[Graymaresrule]

what is she aiming him towards?

Sounds like my old eventing pony.
My husband bought him for me not knowing that he had been blamed for his previous owner’s ulcer.

After considerable effort I ended up using a big fat mullen snaffle, even xc. Really, a stronger bit just made him tuck his chin in and keep on going.

However that was after we worked out a deal. He could go as fast as he wanted XC as long as he listened to me concerning the approach to a fence.

We did dressage FIRST, EVERY ride. And we would do dressage for as long as it took. There were days when it was walk, halt, walk halt. When he behaved himself we would go out and play. One side benefit was that he usually scored well in dressage.

Irish Coffee, back in the very old days
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7GQTHrTZmp0/UWiRw6nTnEI/AAAAAAAAEkg/ojYL6H4qeDs/w259-h207-p-no/ic.jpg

[Romany]

What about an old-fashioned simple double bridle?

Or a Micklem bridle?

[Foxtrot_s]

Since you are an experienced horse person I have not got a lot to offer, but after years of training kids on PPG games ponies, I found that less is often more with these pocket rockets. I use a Nathe, similar, or simple hackamore, and would quit any jumping. Thousands of transitions, with releases and relaxed seat.
One pony had such thick lips, the more the owners bitted her up, the more she ran through the pain of pinched lips against her gums whatever bit they used.
A good games pony has to have whoa and go, and know the difference, as the games are designed to produce ratable ponies. It is not all about hell bent for election (not on my watch, anyway, and we went all the way to international).

In this case I’d not use any speed at all…but I know the type and wish you luck.

[poltroon]

What about a kineton noseband?

[Janet]

I have one of those (HOT Connemara x TB mare). Any idea what the breeding is on the Connemara side?

Some days she has only two gaits - jig and gallop If you try to get tough with her she will run backwards. Some days she will go right through the bit, and other days she sucks behind the bit.

But she can jump the moon, and on good day you can ride her by thought control.

I ride her in a curved French link (with a flat center piece) .

We do a lot of exercises on control with minimal use of the bit. There have been days when we spend a whole hour working on walk-halt-walk transitions without bracing, diving, or sucking back, using my seat and back.

We also do lots of transitions within the gait at the trot and canter, using weight and position far more than the bit. I can be in a full gallop and sit up, and she will slow down. But if I pull on the reins she will keep going. The reward for coming back is that she gets to go forward again.

One thing my instructor tells me that is REALLY important for this kind of horse: “You can PULL as hard as you have to. But you MUST NOT HOLD.” If you need to use the bit, you need to release (REALLY release) at least once, and preferably twice, per stride.

The more you release, the more she listens, and the slower she goes.

[jawa]

Foxtrot and Janet have very good advice.

I would also suggest a kineton or using a micklem bridle as both of these can take pressure off of the mouth and applies some to the nose. A running martingale can add a little more control without upping the bit.

My, guessing, quarter arab was a hot mess when I got him. He required a ton of contact to maintain a walk…and that only increased as the speed increased. Whoa was difficult and then it was a jolting halt…he threw me up on his neck many times doing his brace my front legs jarring halt.

His favorite way to approach a jump was to gallop to the base of the fence, halt, jump, and gallop away.

First order of business was to work on walking on the buckle. If he went faster than a walk, he went into a spiraling circle until he walked again, then he could go straight.

Next order of business was to put some flexibility into his body and make him sensitive in the correct way to leg pressure. Not all leg means go. I taught him to move his hauches off the track both ways and to move his shoulders off the track both ways.

Third was to do transitions and to have them come from my seat rather than my hands. Walk, Whoa, Back. Rinse, Repeat. Add a trot, but if he got excited, back to walk, whoa, back. Add canter, again back to the slower pace if he got quick or tense. Lastly add gallop. Each time he was asked for the faster pace, he was only allowed to go a few strides before the downward transition. So for example, walk 3/4 of a circle, trot 1/4, Resorting to spiraling the circle if the trot was tense or if he ignored the downward transition from my seat.

Other things to work on were changing his frame without changing his pace/tempo. This helped to keep him from anticipating a collection of rein as a we are moving faster cue.

Most of this work was done in a large field. Circles, serpentines, riding a square and roll backs all helped to make him adjustable.

He came to me as a 20 year old, set in his ways, pony. It took a while, but we got to the point where he was the BEST fox hunting pony. Great with hounds, easily ponied other horses, rode anywhere in the field (although he had a bit of Napoleon syndrome and preferred being up front), would jump anything, and was great with cows. My only complaint, and it is a half-hearted complaint, is that I NEVER FOUND THE BOTTOM TO THAT PONY!! He always had gas in the tank. Even after a 6 1/2 hour hunt…I only had to hint at let’s go.

[LookmaNohands]

I think schooling is your friend here. But break it down into little pieces. Stand with head down on the lead rope. Stand with head down w/bridle on unmounted in the arena–same mounted. Walk–halt–stand calmly. Walk–trot–halt–stand calmly. Walk–canter–halt–stand calmly.

Then two fences about 6 strides apart. Trot the first, halt between, rein back, trot the second, halt and rein back. Once this is calmly accepted, trot the first one, walk, trot the second, halt, rein-back. Then trot the first one, trot the second one and halt. Then canter the first one, trot the second one.

And, GIVE, GIVE GIVE the reins!!! Take to whoa but then GIVE as you halt.

Joe Fargis has some wonderful exercises of trotting poles etc on a loose rein. The loose, soft rein is the key here.

Look at what you are feeding too and consider that tension in the body from soreness or a saddle that does not fit will make it all worse!

Good luck!

[Graymaresrule]

Back when I got my old eventing pony (OK it was 1971 or so!) we didn’t have the wealth of training material or opportunities we have now. Some of the lower level horses eventing at that time were usually misfits that didn’t work out as something else. I got most of the tools I used from
http://www.amazon.com/Make-Most-Your-Horse-Application/dp/0385044828/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411823375&sr=8-1&keywords=make+the+most+of+your+horse It is very much about riding from your seat and balance.

The author is deceased but used to post here on COTH as Verna Jan. http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/col-jan-dickerson

[amm2cd]

I too have a hot Connie x TB x Greman riding pony.
She can also cover some distance in a nanosecond, with lots of tiny footsteps.

Unfortunately for her, I’m a dressage rider and the jog/jig/bounce are not dressage ring gaits.
Now, I started her slowly, methodically and under the guidance of a mentor. She worked in a KK Ultra loose ring french link snaffle for three years.

I switched her to a KK Boucher bit last spring to see if that made the flexion any easier (on me!). Lo and behold, she loves that bit. I can ride through a second level test using online fingertips on the reins.

Of course there was a ton of methodical schooling in there too. Hot, smart mares can’t just do a few 20m circles and a few changes of directions and call it good. They need lateral work, lots of quick changes of bend. Mid to upper level stuff to keep them interested enough to keep playing my game.

Oh, and if you haven’t checked the saddle fit, I broke down and bought a (used) saddle and had it custom fit to her little tight back. Tightness went away, and now we’re making our third level début.

Good luck!

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Janet;7778827]
I have one of those (HOT Connemara x TB mare). Any idea what the breeding is on the Connemara side?

Some days she has only two gaits - jig and gallop If you try to get tough with her she will run backwards. Some days she will go right through the bit, and other days she sucks behind the bit.

But she can jump the moon, and on good day you can ride her by thought control.

I ride her in a curved French link (with a flat center piece) .

We do a lot of exercises on control with minimal use of the bit. There have been days when we spend a whole hour working on walk-halt-walk transitions without bracing, diving, or sucking back, using my seat and back.

We also do lots of transitions within the gait at the trot and canter, using weight and position far more than the bit. I can be in a full gallop and sit up, and she will slow down. But if I pull on the reins she will keep going. The reward for coming back is that she gets to go forward again.

One thing my instructor tells me that is REALLY important for this kind of horse: “You can PULL as hard as you have to. But you MUST NOT HOLD.” If you need to use the bit, you need to release (REALLY release) at least once, and preferably twice, per stride.

The more you release, the more she listens, and the slower she goes.[/QUOTE]

That is one of the more important concepts of all riding with reins in your hand (and of leading also).

We have to think of any we hold with a horse on the other end as an extension of our hand and a way to communicate, not for direct control thru force or skills to try to overpower.

Humans are by our nature “grabby” and we need to be aware of that and not grab the reins or lead, but give and take, guiding the horse thru that extension of our arms, not arm wrestle, that we can’t really win, no matter how harsh a bit or hackamore we have on the horse’s end.

Now, what we use on the other end is also important, some helps communicate, some may hinder if it doesn’t fit the horse’s head, mouth or temperament.
Still, many bit problems are really training problems, the bit secondary to those.

Many such horses are also hard to get to use themselves properly, inverted, giraffe resistances spring up when we try to communicate with them.
Some of that is a learned behavior from the rider having escalated their attempts to control with less than polite hands.
That is what we need to eliminate, eventually, by training proper way of going.

The OP may do well trying different bits, but the training is what will make the horse more manageable.

[Kwill]

[QUOTE=carolprudm;7779089]
Back when I got my old eventing pony (OK it was 1971 or so!) we didn’t have the wealth of training material or opportunities we have now. Some of the lower level horses eventing at that time were usually misfits that didn’t work out as something else. I got most of the tools I used from
http://www.amazon.com/Make-Most-Your-Horse-Application/dp/0385044828/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411823375&sr=8-1&keywords=make+the+most+of+your+horse It is very much about riding from your seat and balance.

The author is deceased but used to post here on COTH as Verna Jan. http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/col-jan-dickerson[/QUOTE]

I own this book – a great resource in what looks like a generic old how to ride book.

I did get the impression that the trainer who posted had no problems rating this pony, but it was the adult amatuer who owns it that has the issues. So it’s the owner that needs to work on some of these exercises to get more control during her rides – and it’s an older person who is brave but has some physical issues, the OP said. So she needs some brakes. I second some kind of noseband/bit combo with the schooling suggested here to calm the horse down. Some of them won’t be calm though, and it’s obvious no one is really unhappy with the horse here, it jumps everything and the owner loves it.

If you ask something like this, though, people will point out it’s some fundamentals that are missing from the equation, because more bit/different mechanism for bit might seem a solution, but as an experienced horse person you know that’s not really true.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Kwill;7779121]
I own this book – a great resource in what looks like a generic old how to ride book.

I did get the impression that the trainer who posted had no problems rating this pony, but it was the adult amatuer who owns it that has the issues. So it’s the owner that needs to work on some of these exercises to get more control during her rides – and it’s an older person who is brave but has some physical issues, the OP said. So she needs some brakes. I second some kind of noseband/bit combo with the schooling suggested here to calm the horse down. Some of them won’t be calm though, and it’s obvious no one is really unhappy with the horse here, it jumps everything and the owner loves it.

If you ask something like this, though, people will point out it’s some fundamentals that are missing from the equation, because more bit/different mechanism for bit might seem a solution, but as an experienced horse person you know that’s not really true.[/QUOTE]

That is true, the OP may be already covering other bases and wants to get ideas on bits that may help in this situation.

Still, since others reading may not be aware of all other that these questions bring up, it is always good to revise those also.

We truly don’t know, without being there, what is going on.

[Pipkin]

I had one of these when I was a kid! He jumped me out of the arena more than once - doing grids and he just kept going :S

I agree with others who have said they need brain work. I would combine brain work and walk work - things like shoulder in, walk pirouette, leg yield, half pass, turn on the forehand etc etc etc. Slowly and calmly.