Hotline, Diamond Hit or De Niro?

[Forte]

Am I the only one already thinking of stallion choices for next year?
I hope to breed my 2010 Belissimo M filly next year and I could use some help on who to breed her to.
Pedigree is here http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10669696
She is a maiden mare, so I want to breed her to a proven stallion that’s a known quantity, not an up and comer. Stallion must be Oldenburg, Hanoverian or Dutch approved and must be available either fresh in Canada or frozen (don’t want to deal with the CEM thing getting semen from the US). My goal is to produce a potential FEI horse for myself, a petite lady rider, not to produce a fancy foal or horse for resale. I don’t care about color or “pretty”. I am looking for a stallion that is a proven FEI performer or producer of FEI horses.
My mare strong points:very elastic mover, extremely pretty head and feminine type, great feet and correct front legs, perfect size and build for me (light and elegant). Although this filly is not under saddle due to her age, I have ridden and shown her dam, grand dam and “grand aunt” and they all have excellent rideability, sensitive in a good way, intelligent and a great work ethic. I imagine this mare will be the same.

Weak points: My biggest concern is the hind end. Her croup is quite flat and hind legs are a bit too straight (although she seems to use them well enough). Other areas that could use improvement: could have more knee action, needs more muscling over the topline. Could have more overtrack in the walk (although it’s 4 beat and pure).

The stallions I have in mind are Hotline, De Niro and Diamond Hit. Can anyone comment on how well they might match my mare? Any other suggestions? Johnson has also crossed my mind, although I don’t know if he has any offspring old enough to be doing FEI yet.

[Donella]

Hmm…not sure I would go D line if you want more angle to the hind legs? Have also heard Hotline won’t add any “fanciness” to the front end.

I like your idea of Johnson to be honest with you. I have seen a good handful in the flesh and all were nice with good temperaments. I haven’t seen a video of pics of any Johnson offspring that I don’t really like…

[rodawn]

A good conformation picture would be helpful.

[Home_Again_Farm]

Hotline is not likely to add rounder movement. He is very likely to add height and overall size (which it sounds like you don’t really want).

[Forte]

[QUOTE=Donella;6382381]
Hmm…not sure I would go D line if you want more angle to the hind legs? Have also heard Hotline won’t add any “fanciness” to the front end.

I like your idea of Johnson to be honest with you. I have seen a good handful in the flesh and all were nice with good temperaments. I haven’t seen a video of pics of any Johnson offspring that I don’t really like…[/QUOTE]

Ok, sounds like Hotline is out. Really, you wouldn’t pick D-line to improve the hind end? I thought that Donnerhall is supposed to put an “engine” on a horse? W-line is usually my choice for improving the hind end, but this filly already has Weltmeyer in the pedigree, otherwise I’d probably breed her to Wolkentanz II. I just don’t know if I want to line breed to Weltmeyer.
I’m working on getting a picture of this mare. Just need to convince my hubby to come out to the barn to be my photographer.

[Donella]

Ahh you know Sara I shouldn’t generalize like that. I don’t know if that is actually the case in general with the D lines but I have seen a few that were linebred on Donnerhall (always with Deniro on one side) and all were very straight behind (actually straight in the femur and through the hock) so standing up they look a bit post legged but moving out they are slow and out behind. I always thought it was a Donnerhall thing? I remember a few years ago I had inquired with a few people about linebreeding on Donnerhall and I had been warned of the straight behind issue but now I see it is done quite a bit and often with good results.

Anyways, I don’t mean to imply that you won’t get a powerful hind end,…at the end of the day DeNiro is an unreal producer of GP horses. I doubt you would really go wrong with any of your choices.

[Marydell]

I agree with Mary Lou, Hotline isprobably not what you are looking for.

But I am over in Germany right now and have seen many Diamond Hit foals and mares at the MPT in the past week. They are good looking, even if not always a pretty head. Usually three very nice gaits. But the ones I saw last week were on the taller side as well. But it is a proven pedigree

DeNiro has some super offspring out there. If you look at the leading horses for the German Olympic team, you will find that he shows up alot percentage wise of those with a realistic chance of making the team. I personally am a DeNiro fan.

I am also a fan of Donnerhall blood in most cases. Of course there are three I can think of off the top of my head that I don’t like. But that is due to the damline and seeing their offspring that I find consistant flaws showing up.

There are several cases of doubling up on Donnerhall successfully. Most notable is Fuerstenball. That is Florestan with double Donnerhall.
There will be a Don Principe(Donnerhall/Prince Thatch XX)/Bellisimo M/Fuerst Heinrich/Rotspon foal next year in Germany.
Donnerhall blood is successful crossed with most of your mare lines. Florestan-First Dance,Fuerst Heinrich, Fuerstenball. Rommadour- all of the Rubinstein sons cross well here-Royal dance, etc.

Although I agree with Forte, the hindleg can be slow off the ground, but the "carry"power is undeniable. That is what you want in a GP horse more than “quick”. “quicker” can be established with correct training if the work ethic is there. with Donnerhall, it almost always is…

[rodawn]

^^^^^ THIS!

And since you have a strong Weltmeyer in her and the hindquarter is a very strong family trait, I doubt the hindquarters would be something you worry about.

[Crosiadore]

From your list of criteria, not having seen the mare, I would go with Diamond Hit. Would not expect Deniro to add knee, though think he would do about everything else. We just had a Diamond Hit/Rubinstein colt that I love. He is big and has bone but the mare throws that. The mare has been bred to Sandro Hit twice and Fidertanz, and I like the movement/elasticity/top line on this Diamond Hit the best. Nice amount of knee that the mare does not have.

When I think of the straight hind leg in some Donnerhall’s I attribute that more to the Donnerhall/Pik Bube cross and think it is more a Pik Bube trait. Line bred Donnerhall I like, line bred Pik Bube, no thank you.

[rodawn]

So, I’m thinking some more and what about some slightly younger stallions who have proving to have well appreciated offspring, some now under saddle and proving their metal? So, I’ll just run through some interesting choices and let you have some fun playing with these ideas - they won’t have all of your criteria, but it is interesting perusing different choices they present. I’m also stallion shopping for 2013 so you’re in good company.

You have a young mare here who has a well-proven damline heritage. Thus, you have a measured degree of predictability here.

Rotspon - he’s very consistent in throwing temperament, brains and talent, but he is not consistent in producing height. Some of his barely make 16 hands, and some are quite a bit taller. Rascalino, his younger son, also has similar effect, although I’m not sure his new owners are going to offer frozen next year. I took a risk and bred my Wolkentanz I x KWPN mare to Rascalino this year. She’s a maiden, but well-proven damline, and I own her mother too, so I decided to take the plunge. Waiting for the preg check.

DeNiro - sends forward talent, brains, temperament, along with a well proven Trak mareline. DeNiro’s breeder was very deliberate when he paired his Trak mare to Donnerhall. He very specifically said Donnerhall sometimes creates heaviness and he wanted to keep the leggy elegance that this particular mare provided. And he was right. DeNiro won his first GP comp at 7 years.

Diamond Hit - He’s sumthin’ special tho. I quite like him and out of all your original choices, he’s the one older stallion I really like. Of the stallion sons I’ve seen, they seem to inherit his lovely topline. Donnerhall mixed with Pik Bube offers a nick that was extra special - a double dose of rideability and good sensitivity to the rider’s leg. Ramiro is jumper blood and offers power to the hindquarter, something you were wondering about.

Have you looked at Zardon Firford - this is a total outcross bringing in some trak - Gribaldi-Kostolany + Arogno. Arogno especially is special blood. I’m not 100% sure he’s offered yet for frozen here, but might be interesting to keep on radar for next year because maybe he will be by then.

Schwarzenegger - - standing in Canada - a son of Sion who is suddenly showing his sons have it pretty good, some of his other sons include Sir Oldenburg and Sir Primeur. I’ve watched Schwarzenegger being ridden in a couple clinics and he has try with a capital T - gives his amateur rider everything he’s got and never gets frustrated with her. Just goes and tries and does some more, much to the delight of Cindy Ishoy and also Ingrid Klimke who particularly liked this stallion. Obviously his temperament is spectacular. He’s pretty too.

I also like Donella’s idea of Johnson. He’s pretty much done it all. His foals have been pretty darn good, so I wouldn’t rule him out just because he’s not as proven as say DeNiro or Diamond Hit.

Metall - I wonder here though - it depends on your wants/needs. Mixed with a weltmeyer, this might produce some heat. Or it might not. He’s a beaut though. Just thought I’d throw it out there.

Heinrich Heine is a bit young perhaps for what you want; however, his damline is a proven lineage of success one after the other and that tends to promote successfullness in the offspring. His foal crops have been pleasing and winning at their foal shows. His is a very deliberate pedigree, so I wouldn’t necessarily rule him out just because you have a new mare. Especially in his damline is Diplomat. Diplomat was an exceptional broodmare stallion. Most of his mares were States Premium. I have his aging granddaughter in my barn.

Depardieu - offers the same stallion line as Diamond Hit, but a totally different damline. Interesting stallion who is proving his networth.

So, what about Breitling W? His ability to produce upper level dressage horses is startlingly consistent. Your mare you said is very feminine in type and would hopefully elegantify your foal. He’s not an ugly horse by any stretch and what strikes me the most about this stallion is his very pleasant demeanor. He loves to perform and do his best for his rider. The other striking thing about him is how easy the grand prix movements are for him, and how easy he makes it for the rider to look pretty while he does the work.

So, they might not all have your specific criteria, but they’re all interesting thoughts to ponder. Have fun.

[stolensilver]

To throw something completely different into the mix how about Buddenbrock? He’s proven beyond any question and has GP sons and eventers and showjumpers to his name!

[Sunnydays]

My vote very strongly for Diamond Hit. 3 lovely stallions - but Diamond Hit will complement your filly most. He makes very good riding horses, and with a modern, leggier type is a great choice.
I’m sure you’ll be fussing about this all winter. Your Belissimo filly is really lovely.

[Ibehorsepoor]

[QUOTE=rodawn;6382760]
So, I’m thinking some more and what about some slightly younger stallions who have proving to have well appreciated offspring, some now under saddle and proving their metal? So, I’ll just run through some interesting choices and let you have some fun playing with these ideas - they won’t have all of your criteria, but it is interesting perusing different choices they present. I’m also stallion shopping for 2013 so you’re in good company.

You have a young mare here who has a well-proven damline heritage. Thus, you have a measured degree of predictability here.

Rotspon - he’s very consistent in throwing temperament, brains and talent, but he is not consistent in producing height. Some of his barely make 16 hands, and some are quite a bit taller. Rascalino, his younger son, also has similar effect, although I’m not sure his new owners are going to offer frozen next year. I took a risk and bred my Wolkentanz I x KWPN mare to Rascalino this year. She’s a maiden, but well-proven damline, and I own her mother too, so I decided to take the plunge. Waiting for the preg check.

DeNiro - sends forward talent, brains, temperament, along with a well proven Trak mareline. DeNiro’s breeder was very deliberate when he paired his Trak mare to Donnerhall. He very specifically said Donnerhall sometimes creates heaviness and he wanted to keep the leggy elegance that this particular mare provided. And he was right. DeNiro won his first GP comp at 7 years.

Diamond Hit - He’s sumthin’ special tho. I quite like him and out of all your original choices, he’s the one older stallion I really like. Of the stallion sons I’ve seen, they seem to inherit his lovely topline. Donnerhall mixed with Pik Bube offers a nick that was extra special - a double dose of rideability and good sensitivity to the rider’s leg. Ramiro is jumper blood and offers power to the hindquarter, something you were wondering about.

Have you looked at Zardon Firford - this is a total outcross bringing in some trak - Gribaldi-Kostolany + Arogno. Arogno especially is special blood. I’m not 100% sure he’s offered yet for frozen here, but might be interesting to keep on radar for next year because maybe he will be by then.

Schwarzenegger - - standing in Canada - a son of Sion who is suddenly showing his sons have it pretty good, some of his other sons include Sir Oldenburg and Sir Primeur. I’ve watched Schwarzenegger being ridden in a couple clinics and he has try with a capital T - gives his amateur rider everything he’s got and never gets frustrated with her. Just goes and tries and does some more, much to the delight of Cindy Ishoy and also Ingrid Klimke who particularly liked this stallion. Obviously his temperament is spectacular. He’s pretty too.

I also like Donella’s idea of Johnson. He’s pretty much done it all. His foals have been pretty darn good, so I wouldn’t rule him out just because he’s not as proven as say DeNiro or Diamond Hit.

Metall - I wonder here though - it depends on your wants/needs. Mixed with a weltmeyer, this might produce some heat. Or it might not. He’s a beaut though. Just thought I’d throw it out there.

Heinrich Heine is a bit young perhaps for what you want; however, his damline is a proven lineage of success one after the other and that tends to promote successfullness in the offspring. His foal crops have been pleasing and winning at their foal shows. His is a very deliberate pedigree, so I wouldn’t necessarily rule him out just because you have a new mare. Especially in his damline is Diplomat. Diplomat was an exceptional broodmare stallion. Most of his mares were States Premium. I have his aging granddaughter in my barn.

Depardieu - offers the same stallion line as Diamond Hit, but a totally different damline. Interesting stallion who is proving his networth.

So, what about Breitling W? His ability to produce upper level dressage horses is startlingly consistent. Your mare you said is very feminine in type and would hopefully elegantify your foal. He’s not an ugly horse by any stretch and what strikes me the most about this stallion is his very pleasant demeanor. He loves to perform and do his best for his rider. The other striking thing about him is how easy the grand prix movements are for him, and how easy he makes it for the rider to look pretty while he does the work.

So, they might not all have your specific criteria, but they’re all interesting thoughts to ponder. Have fun.[/QUOTE]

I would love to see more pics of Depardieu… I have saw some where I love him others where I love him…

[honeylips]

“DeNiro - sends forward talent, brains, temperament, along with a well proven Trak mareline. DeNiro’s breeder was very deliberate when he paired his Trak mare to Donnerhall.”

DeNiro comes from a Hanoverian mare.

I have had a GP DeNiro mare and owned 2 others from him as well. He will not add knee, nor improve neck,not much of a walk maker either. He brings character, willingness to work,ability to collect.

[rodawn]

Absatz is Trakehner. I was taking direct information from the breeder of
De Niro. Some of his mareline is hanoverian, but not all as there is also TB.

[Forte]

Some really interesting ideas here. I am leaning heavily in the direction of Diamond Hit, although I am still open to suggestions.

Buddenbrock would be high on my list if he wasn’t in the US. I have enough stress in my life without dealing with the CEM thing. I am interested in learning more about some the Trakehner stallions out there. What about Imperio?

I love De Niro but I’m not sure I would associate “leggy elegance” with him. He strikes me as being pretty chunky.

I also LOVE Breitling W, but I think that would be doubling up on Bolero too close.

I am interested in adding some Jazz blood to my program. What about Wynton or Westpoint?

[stolensilver]

Imperio is considered to be easily stressed so you may be better using his sire Connery who is know for passing on a kind, calm temperament (most of the time!) You do need correct front legs and hooves on your mare.

Westpoint had significant fertility problems a couple of years ago. I don’t know if they have solved them or not. I know a son of his who is a lovely horse, good mover, nice looker and mostly very kind but he’s a lot of horse. If he’s representative of Westpoint’s offspring (n=1 so who knows?) you need a good and sensitive rider to get the best from them. He’s extremely powerful and his trot is enormous with a huge amount of movement to absorb if you try to sit to it. He needs to be tactfully ridden.

[rodawn]

The Team Nijhof stallions also all come with a LFG so that might be a choice concerning a maiden filly. (Johnson is sired by Jazz and is noted to be easy to ride/handle).

I have to chuckle - De Niro is chunky… but Breitling…isn’t? They’re both rather masculine stallions! Both about 170-171 cm (16.3+). LOL - I’m kinda teasing you. I love both stallions because they’re both extremely handsome boyz.

Stallion shopping is so much FUN… this is the part of breeding I really enjoy… next to playing with the foals.

I guess a helpful question would be - - what bloodlines interest you that you think would compliment your mare the most? Then we could all wade through the masses of stallions in those categories.

I threw together some test matings for ya -
Breitling W x Fortuna = http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtestmating.php?&sireid=10419525&damid=10669696

18% Bolero blood. Not an overdose, by any stretch.

Diamond Hit x Fortuna = http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtestmating.php?&sireid=10429637&damid=10669696

[Donella]

I really think Johnson will give you what you want. I am also always tempted to use Jazz or some relative but am so worried about getting that spookiness/temperament issues. The Johnson’s are supposed to be quite nice to ride.

I LOVE that Imperio but as far as I can see there is no frozen to be had?

[Forte]

Are there any issues with Bolero that would make me not want to line breed to him?

The horses I am drawn to are invariably Weltmeyer, Florestan or Bolero bloodlines. That’s why I’m having so much trouble picking a stallion for this mare, she already is a Bolero/Florestan/Weltmeyer cross!
Donnerhall seems to be the most reliable for producing GP horses, so that’s the line I’m focusing on. Some outside Dutch or Trakehner blood could be very interesting though.