The OP specifically stated that she knows nothing about the horse’s history, so she is just guessing that he has had Parelli training because she is running into problems and wants to blame someone. I do retrain OTTBs and have other breeds as well. It’s irrelevant to me what “type” of training the horse has had before me, it only matters that the horse does or does not respond correctly to what I ask. I do everything the same way with every horse.
2 Likes
That’s because he was not trained to stop, he was trained to yield the hindquarters. You are asking him to stop using the same cues that he was taught meant yield the hindquarters. What many posters on this thread are missing is that this basic ground work is not the goal, it’s the foundation upon which training is built. It encourages the horse to relax and look for the right answer. It gives the horse and trainer tools to reduce anxiety in a stressful situation and avoid spooks, bucks, bolts and rears because that behavior is nipped in the bud. So then you have a horse that is very trainable, and you are not online asking advice about your horse that you just had a wild ride on.
3 Likes
I don’t think it matters whether the horse had previous Parelli or NH training. Take the horse in front of you and handle it the way you see fit. Teach it what you want it to do. Horses are adaptable. He will learn.
3 Likes
If this older Arab has ever had any show training, he may have been handled by experienced Pros who have been incorporating very traditional horse handling that some have cherry picked and relabeled NH. Many basics are centuries old basics no matter the label.
Not sure Jumping to the conclusion this horse, from a completely different background then OP, belongs in the NH bucket instead of just having more good handling then OP is used to. Maybe he’s not the one that needs untraining? Might be a great learning opportunity for OP to enlarge her skill set.
3 Likes
BINGO!!!
As society has moved away from having horses with jobs to having horses as “pets” the manners of these “pets” seems to have deteriorated.
The “cowboy” still believe in well behaved horses. Ever see a string of horses patiently standing single-tied to a wall? Contrast that to some of the “English” barns where horses won’t stand still in cross ties, pawing and jigging.
The NH people seem to have found a market to sell their wares to these people. People who have never seen or been exposed to basic horse handling or basic horsemanship.
The NH people have repackaged well-known techniques that have been around since man domesticated the horse and marketed them to people who don’t know better…and who think “whip” is a four-letter word…So now we have carrot sticks, and wands…
As others have said, ride/train the horse in front of you. If you want certain behaviors then train and reward for those.
1 Like
IME, the whole point of all this type ground work is working towards getting the horse going nicely under saddle. Eventually, you wouldn’t need to do this type of groundwork before getting on; you could do a few checks while leading the horse to make sure he is focused on you and hop on. The goal is not the ground work, the goal is a rideable horse with excellent ground manners. IMHO, this is where PP fails.
You have your toolbox of things you have learned from riding the horses you have in the past, but this horse is giving you an opportunity to increase your toolbox because the things you have tried are not working. I would seek out an instructor to help with your journey!
3 Likes
Well, that’s certainly thrilling news, but, as I’m sure you know, plenty of people take the opposite approach, so I really don’t see the need for belligerence here. The OP asked a simple question. Jeez Louse!
This place never changes, does it?
5 Likes
I don’t think there’s any wrong in considering if the horse has had previous NH or Parelli training that the new owner is perhaps unfamiliar with. Yes, it could be a learning opportunity for the OP. Yes, they could consider involving a trainer who will work with them and the horse as a unit, if they haven’t done so already. Horses, I believe, are quite adaptable and fluid. They have the ability to learn or relearn things, provided the cues are clear. I’m sure many of us have made mistakes in our working with horses, pro or non pro alike. Perhaps in teaching new ideas, or reteaching for a different desired response, though, will be met with initial confusion from the horse. Perhaps that’s where the wonder of what the horse’s training history is comes from.
Sometimes, too, there is the possibility that some of the maneuvers learned from following a flavor du jour NH trainer aren’t being taught to the horse the way the trainer intends. I do imagine this can happen with some folks, who have a genuine desire to have a better relationship with their horse and are drawn in by the marketing surrounding one of these glorified cowboys. Perhaps the HO and the NH trainer come from their own places, separately, that are well meaning, but some things end up lost in translation. Perhaps this horse has a miscommunicated form of NH training in there, or perhaps it’s not a question of the previous training.
Regardless, I think the OP asked a fair question. I think the philosophy behind working with horses can, by and large, be the same, but sometimes requires a different approach based on the individual horse. “Make the right thing easy, and the wrong thing hard”, “make your idea, the horse’s idea” are words I’ve heard often, but the way to get there can sometimes be case dependent. A trainer, either at the current barn or one willing to do out calls, may be a good idea for this horse, at least until OP and horse are on the same page.
1 Like
Horses do what they are trained to do and what they understand. I trained my horse to stay straight on the long, but this was “retrained” by the NH training who understood how I trained my horse. I since let my horse turn and face me sometimes, but not on the longe line and he gets it. I disagree that horses do this as a party trick or are allowed to do it as a party trick. You might want to learn the goal, it’s as valid at a trainer teaching a horse to stay straight.
The wiggly rope thing is a non-verbal way to teach “back”. That’s about as natural as saying “back” to train the horse to back up. In English or any other language that horses don’t naturally know because they don’t speak human-speak.
I disagree that NH training causes problems, People who don’t know how to train it cause problems. I’m a dressage rider and I will tell you that bad dressage riders and “trainers” cause all sorts of problems (dressage has a bad rap, too). Pretty much, in any discipline, bad “trainers” cause problems to the horse.
Most good Parelli trainers have left Parelli. Clients are not trainers.
2 Likes
I used to know somebody who’d claim that “Parelli ruined her horse” and that “since Parelli training he has become dangerous to lunge”. The reality was a bit different - they had watched a SINGLE youtube video about the “circling game” by the Parelli system (it was not even performed by a professional trainer), attempted to chase their horse in a long lead line and to aggressively yield his hindquarters, and as a result the frustrated horse started randomly stopping on the circle and coming to the owner on his own, and getting angry when she tried returning him on the circle by suddenly wiggling the rope.
Unhappy horse and ignorant owner - but the system as such was not to blame, even if you don’t agree with the method as such.
Hi - I wanted to update. The horse in question was the most unhappy horse I have ever known. I will never know his previous history but it must have been awful. So…past years I have walked by my bookcase seeing a title ,“Clicker Training for Your Horse”. I decided to get that book out and finally read it - cover to cover. Intrigued and inspired I bought Alexandra Kurland’s subsequent - and IMHO even better book, “The Click that Teaches”. So…the past months I have been working with my horse CT +R (positive reinforcement) and the changes in him have been incredible. I also got in contact with my dressage instructor from years ago. She has been studying/training CT +R for several years. I had no idea !!! She has come out to work with us and things keep getting better and better. I am happy. My new horse is happy. In addition to being quite the learning experience it has been so much FUN.
13 Likes
We call that letting the genie out of the bottle.
Once you have a horse started clicker training, it is a whole different world how you communicate.
Most good trainer already use operant conditioning techniques without having thought about it.
That is a very natural way to communicate and train.
Once we put that under our conscious way to train, make it part of how we do things in a methodical way and practice it, the sky is the limit.
You can train from fleas to fish, your DH, your kids and impossible MIL, your dog and definitely your horses.
We generally suggest people interested in theory of training also check out the 2012 edition of Donaldson “Culture Clash”, an important training concept book to better understand how different we all see the world, which clicker training complements, looking for common ground to then communicate thru it’s techniques, makes the whole easier to understand.
Those of you saying “he’s your horse now, train him how you want him to act” … well, yes & no. They do remember what they first learned and teaching a different behavior using the same cue is really hard and tends to have hit or miss results.
I have a halter-trained arab. She hasn’t been in the halter ring since she was 2 but she still “assumes the pose” for halt if the word “whoa” is involved. Trying to teach a square halt was like banging my head against the wall. Eventually, I had to give up and teach a separate command/cue for “square” because otherwise she’d revert to the pose whenever she was stressed … like in the show ring during a dressage test. Nothing like riding into a good, round, square halt only to have ms. mare step a foot back and turn into a carousel horse, showing the judge the upper reaches of her sinuses. So I taught an entirely different signal in hand meant “square” and then used that to teach square under saddle and will mutter that command under my breath under saddle if we’re having a tense day.
Ask any competitive dog trainer - you don’t use the same cue for two different actions - each one does something and if you really break a cue, it’s easier to start with a new one than try to fix the old one.
OP knowing what cues result in what actions will help her expand her horse’s vocabulary and shape his behaviors much quicker than trying to re-write the cues he already knows.
5 Likes
^^^There is not really a “cue” for a square halt. As you stated, “riding into a good round square halt” is exactly how you get a square halt. You are having a problem with the standing still that comes after the halt. You are mentally “losing” your horse after the halt - you need to keep her mentally actively engaged by doing things other than standing still after the halt. I would NOT stand still with this horse after the halt - I’d go forward immediately while she is still round and square. If you always transition into something else right after the halt, you interrupt her thought process that causes her to pose after the halt. After a while, her brain is on you and what you are going to ask her to do as soon as you halt. I would do this for like 3 weeks before allowing her to stand still as if saluting the judge.
1 Like
I wasn’t going to bother posting this since it’s a revival of a thread from last year, but…
Parelli - they are their own dog and pony show. Thank Mike people are starting to move away from them: it’s charlatanism at it’s finest.
NH - this is the Clinton Anderson, Monty Roberts, and Chris Cox’s et al of the horsemanship world. IMO, a step up from PP but still wholly missing the boat. Historically these are folks who took the very old, correct working buckaroo and vaquero horsemanship and interpreted it without really understanding the fundamental reasons behind what they were doing.
Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman et al - NONE of these guys, or anyone who practices this school of horsemanship, want ANYTHING to do with the phrase “natural horsemanship”. They’ve said as much themselves. Nothing any human does with a horse is “natural”, and Ray recognized very quickly that the term served as a marketing gimmick and nothing more.
A good example of the major difference between NH and the Dorrance/Hunt “school”, if you want to call it that, is the whole “disengaging of the hindquarter” thing. Disengaging gets taught in the NH school as a method of control, i.e. you get your horse to move his hind end over as a means of submission, teaching him to yield to you, allowing you to stay safe by means of controlling the most dangerous part of him. In reality, both the term “disengage” and the reason behind it as taught by the NH folks is a completely misinterpreted version what many of these clinicians saw Ray, Tom, etc, doing. The term I was taught was “untracking”, and it is specifically about teaching the horse to take a deep step under and obliquely with his inside hind as the basis for how he is to elicit correct movement for the rest of his working life. It is about ENGAGING the hind end, flexing through the pelvis so that the horse - when he goes to start ridden work - already has this foundation built in. It also has roots in something Tom recognized by watching horses in a herd - that a horse who wants to move another horse will elicit him to initiate moving off by stepping under and over with the inside hind leg. In this way, it DOES bring about a submissive feeling for the horse, but it is not about control or dominance and NH tends to teach.
NH is rife with misunderstandings such as this - but one thing NH and PP have going for them that the old school vaquero/buckaroo folks never bothered with is excellent marketing, and many of the teachings, terminology, etc have come to revolve around who they are marketing to and what sells best.
5 Likes
Or you literally spend YEARS doing what you said above, get it 99% of the time at home and only 50% of time in the show ring and then you say screw it, take a page from your dog training manual and teach a separate command where there is no confusion about what you’re asking for. Yes, you’re riding it the same but a command for a square halt in hand transitioned no problem to a ridden “stay square” reinforcement command in the saddle.
Trust me, we tried the whole active engage, halt only a second thing forever. She always reverted to her original training. Even now, in her 20s, you halt her in hand with a “whoa” and you get the pose. That early training sticks!
5 Likes
Nice succinct over view.
Yes, I’ve long thought that the disengage the hind quarters move ran counter to where you want to go with correct riding. I don’t want my horse to halt by plowing around on the forehand!
Conversely after your horse gets some collection and lateral moves you can’t pull them off balance so easily.
If my mare gets hot in hand now, and you try to move her hindquarters over you can get a lively trot shoulder in and moments of passage. But not submussion!
1 Like
When I was introduced to clicker training I thought for about one day that it was so easy to get results, it must be cheating some how.
Then I realized how great it was for really defining what you were asking and saw how fast horse learned and how much fun she was having.
And now I have a trick horse.
She will pick up dropped gloves and hand them to me in the saddle. Also dropped candy wrappers and Kleenex on the trails 
These days, if I can figure out a way to get her to do a move, and attach a cue to it, she will learn a new trick in one or two sessions.
I have backed off using clicker under saddle because it leads to other problems. But in general it is such a great way to vteach a specific behavior.
It is also eye opening to see how fast the horse can learn a behavior when it isn’t physically difficult, and how long they retain in. Makes you realize that it might only take one or two times to learn a bad behavior too!
1 Like
This is training to a T. Any kinds of training. The horse learns so quicky. It is the rider that takes years to learn.
It is easier to train a horse than it is to retrain a horse. So a good trainer never trains bad habits.
The learner rider trains all bad habits that makes it much harder for the real trainer when the horse finally comes to them.
3 Likes
