I’m seriously not wanting to start a train wreck. Here goes: A few months ago I bought an 18 y.o Arabian gelding. I know nothing about his history, but clearly he has had some training. He ties, loads, and is broke. He does some things very well, some things he seems clueless, some things he has decided to say “no” to. He is very sweet. He can be a brat. Recently he has done a few things that make me question if I can keep him. Sometimes he seems confused. I’ve started thinking what he knows (from whatever training he has had ) is not what I know and v.v. Folks at the barn are helping me with him - and they do some NH stuff - which he seems to understand - or better said - respond to better than what I’ve tried. They are followers of the Dorrances, Ray Hunt and some BB and CA. Not Parelli - thank doG - as I’ve never liked him. Watching vids of his and reading here over the years really put me off the P’s and NH in general as a result. I swore years ago I would never buy (well maybe - depending on the poor horse) a PP trained horse. The other night it dawned on me - with a kind of horror - that perhaps I just did. How could one tell? Are there clues re: horse behavior. TIA.
I don’t write off NH like I do with Parelli. I’ve kind of been the type to pick and choose what resonates with me, and then employ the help of a trainer that I like, live and in person. I wouldn’t write a horse off who had had some NH training. I’m in the same boat as you, not looking to start an argument but I had never heard any good when I had heard of Parelli and co.
I’d imagine the quickest way to find out if your horse has Parelli training is to do it? It may take weathering some Parelli videos to tap in to their method, but if you cue for a certain response and you get that response, you may have your answer. Or if you can get in touch with previous owners, try there, too.
I don’t write Parelli-trained horses and trainers off - as most of them have left Parelli. I rode with a S-judge, FEI dressage trainer who was also early generation Parelli-high level. I work with a dressage-trained Parelli-trained cowboy who has made a world of difference in my and my dressage-broke horse’s world. I’m a dressage rider who never gave Parelli and Natural Horsemanship the time of day until I pretty had to work with one. I learned a lot. The system largely makes sense although I’m not a fan of the Ps.
How can you tell? Try NH training methods. Have your horse stand while you are 5’ away. He should stand no problem. “send him” right or left by lifting your right or left arm and turning your body in that direction. Send him into stalls with out you entering and lead him out again. Send him over stumps or whatever place and see it he can follow you. He should move over what you indicate for him. Stand 3’ away facing your horse and wiggle the lead rope - he should be inclined to shift weight backwards or step backwards. His eye/ear should be on you during all of your attempts if he is NH trained and was good at it. He will likely mostly turn to face you at the end of an exercise. Oh the horror of a horse who has learned to pay attention to you-the handler!!! What exactly don’t you like about a horse trained in groundwork? How does that not apply to under saddle work?
For one thing, Parellied horses seem to be rather backward-thinking, which I myself find very irritating. They might stop and turn inward when longing, for example. They might “disengage the hindquarters” and shuffle sideways unnecessarily. They might back up for miles for no good reason, or resist being led briskly forward at the handler’s shoulder.
I’ve also found that Parellied horses tend to be rather rubbery in the neck, though not quite so much as the poor beasts subjected to Clinton Anderson’s magic. This comes from all that pointless “yielding” I imagine, and is very difficult to untrain.
Those owned by beginners are often bad-mannered, on the ground and under saddle. Some become resentful from incessant drilling. Others just tune out, and appear to be much stupider than they actually are.
I myself would never buy a heavily Parellied horse, mostly because of behavioral issues like these, but also because the Parelli fan base tends to omit useful things like worming and vaccinations, while Parelli brand tack and Parelli-style riding gimmicks tend to instill unhealthy habits and poor self-carriage.
Overall, I’m very glad that Parelli stuff is falling somewhat out of fashion. I think it’s an absolute menace. But you sound like a right-thinking person, OP, so, if you haven’t actually noticed much damage done to your new horsie, you might end up okay.
I certainly hope so. 
If you are not making progress with him, I’d question your methods, not his past training. A good trainer will go back to the very beginning and make sure the horse is thoroughly understanding of the basics and move forward from there. It sounds like the horse may be missing some basics and you are not bothering to teach them to him, hence the confusion and misbehavior. So slap whatever label on his past training you want, but the problem is you and what you are doing with him, not the people who had him before you. With every single horse I get, I go back to the beginning so that the horse and I have a clear understanding of what behavior is required.
If you owned a business and hired a new employee, you would go through a training program no matter how old or experienced the employee is. They may never have used your software programs or maybe the duties within their position are slightly different than the duties they did in their prior position. Your horse can’t talk but is clearly telling you that he doesn’t understand you when he misbehaves.
^ All that’s true, up to a point, but I think it always helps to understand something about any horse’s former training if you want to move forward as smoothly as possible.
After all, people regularly devise specific protocols for retraining OTTBs, trotters off the track and what have you, taking the animals’ former experiences into account. Heavily Parellied horses also share a group of generalized retraining issues, so, really, I don’t see what’s wrong with acknowledging this and using it to your advantage.
Another thing I have found, especially with the Parelli trained owners, is if they were told to do something to the X level, they take it to ten times that and that is where many of the problems begin. They also many times do not understand the process of things, for example trailer loading, and therefore cannot fix a situation when problems occur, and this makes the horse even more confused.
I had a woman come to ride with me, and she could not get her horse to load, due to her lack of understanding of how to properly load a horse and what cues she was actually giving the horse. The horse, in fact, was doing exactly what she asked him to do, and was then getting punished for doing it. He loaded for me on the first try, and every time I asked him after that. She was totally clueless, and thinks she is much more “educated” in working with horses. Funny, my horses load and I don’t have the issues she has under saddle.
Most NH groundwork does translate to under saddle wok, especially respect, attention to the handler and understanding commands as…commands… not suggestions. And they know whoa.
IME the PPs are often OK in the groundwork, except for an increased tendency to get nippy, but weren’t ridden out of a walk often enough to learn anything. That might be more on the type person who converts to exclusively Parelliism then the method itself but too many are timid at anything faster then a jog and do way too much groundwork without consistently enforcing any rules. And I never found any of the PP stuff helped anoybody find a good distance to a wide oxer or turn a cow.
Most of those who espouse the other practicioners actually ride at all gaits and are open to ideas from any other practitioners, the fair and consistent discipline creates understanding and respect for the rider and creates a team that can deal with performance standards in competitions.
Kind of sounds like OPs horse has some NH background but, if it’s pretty good under saddle and it’s not a nippy, pushy brat if it doesn’t want to play on the ground?Probably not PP and OP might want to watch some BB on YouTube and pick up that approach when working with the horse. Particularly if it stops and faces her in the round pen or on the ground, that’s actually a positive, it’s asking what you want it to do and waiting until it understands. Obviously you dont want one turning in to face you without stopping unless it’s reversing at your command and immediately finishes that turn.
One signature behavior of PP trained horses, you can find it in other methods, but his is the poster child for that, is that to any request, the horse has learned to first resist, then hop into doing whatever it has learned to do.
Every time you look at the horse and ask, with a raised finger or hand, moving your body, a word, the horse will not smoothly move like dancing with you, but will invert, throw it’s head up and move, as someone has already stated, with a rough scooting away.
That is a basic failure of the PP training ways.
When I asked PP about this, why not teach to ask lightly, in different ways, each best for the horse in front of you, until the horse does it, rather than use a designated clue that you keep using in a rougher and more forcefully way, until the horse, after trying several behaviors, hits the right one?
That is a harder way for the horse to learn and brings out that signature resistance found in so many PP trained horses, at all levels.
Just watch the videos out there, even their educational videos, where that is clearly demonstrated.
PP answer to that was, finesse will come later.
Well, for many, most I have seen, even PP himself, the resisting initially, to grumpy, pinned ears, really never does go away.
Their horses show resistance at all levels because that is the way they were trained and it is so, so unnecessary.
I used to excuse it, thinking maybe that works ok, you know, different ways of training and if the horse gets trained, each one of us does our own things our own way.
After watching the roughness level they later achieved in their quest to demand from their horses that “my way or you will be fought until you get it” of their later so “educational” videos, like clunking the grey arabian, the Barney poor example of training, I just could not excuse them any more.
OP, if your horse was trained by those methods, if by a PP follower or any other trainer’s follower, you can think about what your horse is doing and then work around that so you won’t get the unwanted behaviors.
Horses learn what we teach and reinforce, will also learn new ways to think and do with and for you.
Finding a good, sensible trainer would help you get over this, or at least assess the horse for you as for suitability for you and what you want to do.
I despise a Parelli trained horse especially one that is taught to turn and face and shake the lead rope to back up. Most of the NH stuff is fine but those two things will make me not buy a horse. I expect my horses to ride and drive and turning toward the person will get your shafts broken and cause a wreck. Plus when I want my horse to stop, it means plant your feet not face me, wait for my signal on the next thing to do.
You can de-Parelli a horse but it takes a while and I never fully trust them to not revert when stressed.
I had a little QH that was broke using NH and it was frustrating to work him on the lunge because he was always turning to face me. My dressage trainer taught me to lunge the classical way, with the horse stopping straight when asked. I eventually trained it out of him, but the whole turning to face me thing? I don’t really think it’s a good thing if the horse does it like a party trick. I did eventually train it out of him on the lunge. My horses pay attention to me without throwing their haunches around to stare at me.
And don’t get me started on the wiggly rope thing. How about just saying “back”? Works for my horses!
I maintain that good horsemanship is good horsemanship, and NH is fine if you are not able to get a response from your horse otherwise, but I’ve never had that problem. IMO, the training causes more problems than it helps.
Bluey, that is a great description and very true.
Unlike some I was taught to have the horse halt and face me, PP was probably still high school at the time, it was just the way some did it and I was taught. Never had any confusion long lining/ground driving when the halt was straight, I made sure they knew the difference and, frankly, if I was tracking behind one holding the reins and whip, they pretty much got it right away. Shouldn’t be difficult to train that out if the horse knows what it should and does what it’s told…that is a problem for some of the PPs I’ve worked with. They have some missing training pieces.
Suppose if I hitched up and drove turn and face would be best skipped. But mine didn’t halt and face unless asked and I used voice and subtle body language for reversing and transitions. Who the heck else starts rough and moves to finesse? IME they learn faster if you start with finesse and escalate only when and only as much as needed for correction. When you start rough, they learn to expect rough and often ignore finesse. Which is the opposite of what you want. Of course it helps to use finesse installing all basics while making sure they will understand new demands, but too many skip steps then get rough to teach instead of figuring what the horse didn’t understand and filling that hole first. And mine back up when asked without shaking a rope in their faces, including my show Hunters, cause I taught them to. With finesse.
Theres different ways to do things that work for various people and situations but PP devotees seem to have more problems.
I had the good fortune of being stabled very near the PP traveling show. Watching the prep and behind the scenes routine was quite educational and answered any questions I had about the program. Saved me from wasting any time with it.
The Ray Hunt et al crowd are not at all into PP. Obviously followers of Ray Hunt are going to vary in their competency level but basically they should have good skills for dealing with horses.
My suggestion would be go learn from them because there are clearly holes in your ground work skill set.
That isn’t an insult, it’s just an observation based on the fact other people can handle your horse ok. And you are confusing him as you say.
Ive certainly been in the position of stepping in to help out beginner friends who have got all tied up in knots trying to do simple stuff on the ground. Usually it is easy to see where they are going wrong but hard to show them how to improve their own body language.
I would suggest booking a couple of ground work lessons with whoever coaches your barn friends.
Let that teacher diagnose any holes in your horses training. Don’t get into a panic stricken case of buyers remorse over something that is probably easily fixed at your end of things.
Thank you - this has been very helpful. My background is dressage and trail riding. I’ve started horses myself and other horses I’ve had seemed to get with my basic “program” very easily. Nothing fancy. None of my previous horses had NH or PP training. The horse prior to this one was purchased years ago before NH/PP became popular - I didn’t know much of his background either. If learning NH helps this one - I will do it - or try anyway. Watching others over the years using various NH methods I thought some of the exercises produced the opposite of what I would want. I follow the “don’t lunge in small circles” - and transitions to be smooth - not abrupt. I see horses worked in circles using long lead lines - and being asked to abruptly change directions. I now understand the premise of doing that - to better get the horses attention and respect. Curious though - how harmful that is on the horse’s joints and muscles?
My horse is not lame, but perhaps he is in pain - which could be causing the brattyness and resistances. If the creek doesn’t flood again tomorrow…he will seen by a well respected chiro. Anyway…I’m now pretty convinced his previous training was in NH - done badly - or not. That could explain a lot. I will update. Thanks so much.
With an older horse I would certainly be careful about his limits. Much of what we see under the heading of NH is designed for colt breaking, and doesn’t continue on being necessary once the horse is well broken.
I don’t love the whole “untracking the hindquarters” or “one rein stop” aspect of NH which pull the horse onto the forehand in order to stop him from taking off. I want to work my horse towards being able to work laterally with an uphill balance, not fall on the forehand and stop. Now that my mare has some balance in the shoulder in, I can’t send her in a small circle to make her fall on the forehand and halt. She can just trot shoulder in well balanced.
Teaching shoulder in and other lateral moves in hand at the walk certainly help strengthen the horse;s core and hind end, and is low stress. it isn’t part of the NH program, more the dressage program, but I find it useful to mix the two up.
I don’t think with a basically broke older horse you need to do much abruptness unless horse is actively disobeying in some way. In general go with the most subtle cues you can get away with.
I do get my horse to change direction on the 10 foot lead, but it isn’t that abrupt in that I use voice cues to whoa, and then hand signals to get her to change direction, and then voice cues to trot again, the whip only as needed. Certainly as transitions or directions changes, these are much quieter than she does on her own in the paddock! I would never longe on the rope for very long, it is more a training/attention session than for exercise.
If however you are questioning whether you can keep him because of his behavior, then you need to explore whatever techniques are out there and available to you
Hard to say, if you’ve really no idea how much of this crap he was actually put through.
And then there’s the Parelli riding system, which, just like the groundwork system, seems to require decades of drilling to instill “respect” (these people are chronically insecure on this point!) but never gets around to developing any kind of gymnastically sensible fitness program.
If this was my horse, I’d start there. Just upgrading from a program based on neurotic micro-management to a program based on good health and physical fitness is likely to make a big difference for the better.
Wow the level of bias and misperception about NH on here is astonishing. Though I don’t practice it myself, I did receive some training (including attending Parelli clinics) from someone I was working for who wanted her horses handled in that manner. The horses I encountered were lovely, happy and willing to work. They were primarily ridden on trails (and among the most solid trail horses I’ve been on) but also schooled lower level dressage.
Red Barn; exactly!!! That’s what I have been thinking - neurotic micro management. I think owners/riders should be able to be normal around their horses…Tired… More on this later. Thanks!!!
LOL, yeah,
I agree, but, to be fair, the bulk of the Parellis’ fan base is made up of rank beginners, so we’re talking about people who have no idea what “being normal” around horses means. Deep down, they’re afraid of their animals, and they have no idea how to evaluate or predict their behavior - never mind regulating it.
I think that’s why the Ps are so obsessive about “respect,” why there’s such a focus on psycho-babbling nonsense like “horsonality,” and why the faithful repeat the basic exercises and mindless “games” long after the poor horses are bored and resentful.
Pat and Linda are shysters, no doubt, but they’re definitely smart shysters who know their marks really, really well.
It really doesn’t matter who trained him what how.
He’s your horse now, and your success with him will depend on your ability to teach him how YOU want him to behave.
Install whatever manners you want him to have using the methods you prefer.
Then he will be a YOU trained horse.
