How can one tell if horse has had NH training or has been Parelli-ized?

[Sunflower]

It is true that there is a business model where the trainer makes the decisions for the horse right down to who the farrier and vet should be, the owner has little to no input on even small decisions, the trainer rides the horse several times a week, the owner mainly in lessons. The owner is not encouraged to learn to bring on the horse, or to ride through problems, or in any way shape or form think for themselves and learn about horsemanship that encompasses learning how to bring a horse along, how to care for a horse, wrap legs, muck stalls, etc. Some owners may want this, others may not know a different system can exist. Trainers go with owner to the shows, owner would not fly solo at a show without the trainer there.

This is NOT the business model in Europe.

It was not always a business model in the US, or perhaps not as prevalent as it is now. Granted, it is not the only business model, but it is there.

Didn’t Pony Club used to have levels where kids learned to retrain ex racers to riding horses, way back when, as part of their horsemanship knowledge and experience?

Isn’t George Morris always lamenting the fact that many junior riders today only know a show environment, and do not know much about horse keeping?

Having gone from a more trainer managed environment, to one now where I am fully hands on with my horse, I will keep to the latter and avoid the former. Yes, it was a bit odd at first to have to think about things, and not just assume the trainer had it all in hand. From checking my horse for bumps and scrapes to thinking about adjusting diet to riding through problems-- yes, I am keenly aware of the limits of my knowledge and do seek the help of my trainer and do lessons as needed. But in doing more for myself, I am learning. All the time. Every ride. Every visit to the barn. I know my horse on a very different level, and find it ever so more rewarding than when life was a ribbon chase. But this is just me.

The point being, a client who is more hands on, in a way that NH can facilitate, is not going to be so trainer dependent.

Does that threaten the business model of trainer control? I think PB’s point is that it does.

Does it? Well it might.

I think that was the point.

[Red_Barn]

Come on.

Of course there are over-controlling trainers - which has exactly nothing to do with the fact that a beginning rider has no business trying to “train” anything, with or without a silly new vocabulary and an overpriced rope halter.

A good “hands on client” is one who made an informed choice of trainers to begin with, and then works directly with him or her on a specific, mutually agreed upon game plan. A client who waves ropes around, fancies herself “savvy” and basically messes up everything the trainer aims to accomplish is no asset to anyone.

The Parellis are a menace when it comes to basic horse care anyway. For one, they don’t believe in wormers or vaccinations; for two, they pretty much never discuss nutrition of physical fitness for purpose, and, worst of all, their devotees seem to miss very obvious lameness on a regular basis.

Not a good model for practical horsemanship. At all.

[Palm_Beach]

We all know that trainers don’t make money off boarding, they make money off the add-ons like lessons, training rides and shows. Each stall costs the same, but the horse that needs training rides and schooling classes at the show will be more profitable than the hands on owner who doesn’t need or want all that. Or maybe the owner simply can’t get to the barn that often due to work, school or other obligations.

So Bluey, you can call all trainers crooks is that’s the way you feel. I won’t go there. I’m simply pointing out reality.

[Bluey]

@Palm Beach

We all know that trainers don’t make money off boarding, they make money off the add-ons like lessons, training rides and shows. Each stall costs the same, but the horse that needs training rides and schooling classes at the show will be more profitable than the hands on owner who doesn’t need or want all that. Or maybe the owner simply can’t get to the barn that often due to work, school or other obligations.

So Bluey, you can call all trainers crooks is that’s the way you feel. I won’t go there. I’m simply pointing out reality.

Anyone that is in a service industry and cheats it’s clients, as not training properly and not teach to the best of it’s ability, I would think falls into the crook, snake oil salesman category.

I am sure there are some in horse training also, those are every place, “there is one born every minute”, in the horse world also.

I say, as a blanket statement as that was stated, that is just not so.
Not fair to all the trainers out there that do take good care of their horses and clients, to each as they need and want.

For some clients, hand holding may just be what they desire and why not?
In a service industry, that is what you do, provide the service your clients want.

[Palm_Beach]

Exactly. I ditched my cheap clients last year and kept the ones that were sending me more profitable work. I was at a place where I needed to cut back on volume and made an economic decision to do this. But you appear to be trying to equate this with cheating, and it’s not. I’m not saying a trainer is intentionally doing a bad job so the clients remain dependent, those are your words.

[Sunflower]

@Red Barn

Come on.

Of course there are over-controlling trainers - which has exactly nothing to do with the fact that a beginning rider has no business trying to “train” anything, with or without a silly new vocabulary and an overpriced rope halter.

A good “hands on client” is one who made an informed choice of trainers to begin with, and then works directly with him or her on a specific, mutually agreed upon game plan. A client who waves ropes around, fancies herself “savvy” and basically messes up everything the trainer aims to accomplish is no asset to anyone.

The Parellis are a menace when it comes to basic horse care anyway. For one, they don’t believe in wormers or vaccinations; for two, they pretty much never discuss nutrition of physical fitness for purpose, and, worst of all, their devotees seem to miss very obvious lameness on a regular basis.

Not a good model for practical horsemanship. At all.

And there are good trainers and not so desirable trainers in all disciplines of horse riding. Some people who go under the NH trainer label may not be good trainers, but there are also people who are. Not everything that gets the NH label is bad or a menace or dangerous. Not all hunter or jumper trainers are promoting safe learning environments for horse or rider.

I have seen devotees of so called NH do silly and even dangerous things, like the man who wanted to commune with his horse by laying on the ground of its small paddock, while the horse went galloping around. He knew the horse would not step on him, he said. Same owner, same horse, asked if mine was well behaved with other horses, because from time to time his tried to mount other horses as he rode (this somehow being a behavior issue of the horse being mounted?!). :eek::eek: Lets just say I gave him and his horse the widest possible berth. I would leave the arena if he and his horse came in. It was just an accident waiting to happen.

But to blame that on NH is wrong.

Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, no matter what label you give it. Silly and dangerous is the same, likewise.

[Red_Barn]

@Sunflower

And there are good trainers and not so desirable trainers in all disciplines of horse riding. Some people who go under the NH trainer label may not be good trainers, but there are also people who are. Not everything that gets the NH label is bad or a menace or dangerous. Not all hunter or jumper trainers are promoting safe learning environments for horse or rider.

I can’t speak to everything in the world calling itself “NH.”

I’m just saying that, in my experience, the Parelli system specifically - and this is what the OP asked about - tends to turn out incompetent, cultish owners rather than informed, “hands on clients.” That’s my opinion, and my opinion only. You certainly aren’t obligated to agree.

I’ve said nothing at all about other forms of training or the quality thereof. That’s not the topic, and I’d never make blanket statements about such a vast subject anyway.

[Palm_Beach]

@Red Barn

I’ve said nothing at all about other forms of training or the quality thereof. That’s not the topic, and I’d never make blanket statements about such a vast subject anyway.

I will! I will not consider another trainer’s program until I’ve seen results at a high level. That trainer needs to be out there competing at a high level and consistently doing well, or have some pretty big awards on his or her resume. They need to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.