How can we help?

but I can easily see what you mean.

Here’s another less imposing idea – create a basic horse care website. Tentative table of contents:

Proper worming schedule
Taking your horse’s temp - what’s the norm
Doing the tent test for your horse’s hydration
Dental care and how it impacts your horse’s health
A weight chart
Photos of horses that are too fat, too thin, and just right
Info on hoof care
Keeping your horse safe (no protruding nails, barbed wire, etc.)
Treating injuries - how and what to treat yourself and injuries that must be seen by a vet (include photos)
What shots are needed and when
and more, please add

Although this sounds terribly basic to the COTH readership, there are people here who are just getting started and could really benefit by having basic horse care tips in an easily accessible place.

Fairweather, I was really hoping that someone with the talent for creating websites would step forward and offer to put something together. I’d be happy to collect the information or help in any other way EXCEPT for making the page.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suzy:
Miniwelsh, I get what you’re saying. What I was thinking/wondering was if the person in question had seen this site that I’m envisioning, would it have compelled her to call the vet sooner. Maybe, maybe not. It’s anyone’s guess in that one instance. However, I think there are people who would take advantage of it.

Regarding books on the topics I mentioned, I must have over 100 horse books and not all of the topics I listed in my earlier post are contained in any one single book.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Makes sense to me Suzy. As i said, I am willing to help out on this - I just hope that something like this doesn’t happen again

Behind every good woman lies a trail of men

It is great that people want to offer support in case of hardship. It seems that the biggest problem is getting people to admit that they have a problem…it’s like the alcoholic who is in denial about alcohol abuse, yet loses their job, family, house, etc. And some reach rock bottom and seek help…others remain in denial.

It appeared to me that several posters expressed concern on several threads, and even offered help of some form. Yet there always seemed to be reasons why they couldn’t use that help, or why it wasn’t necessary. And when some posters used what seemed to me to be almost an intervention type technique, they were flamed by other BB members! I know that I was reluctant to offer an opinion about the gravity of the situation because I didn’t want to be perceived as the mean finger pointing BB member who didn’t REALLY know what was/did happen. I feel all that critism of those who were truely concerned to the point of being blunt was enabling the person to continue with this situation without really getting help. It just fed the “poor me” attitude, which wasn’t helping the horse at all.

I think a network of people willing to help would be great…but it seems that we already have that here…look at how many people offered blankets for free, and I would have done so if others hadn’t offered already. If someone really wants help here, they will get it. The real issue is getting them to accept help, IMO.

Yes, a horse died, but that is a result of a problem that we have very little knowledge about… Sounds to me like she was doing all she could


I said I wasn’t going to use any more exclamation marks today, but… MULEY, YOU CAN"T BE SERIOUS! This is NOT a child but a sixteen-year-old who, while she appears to have marked emotional and family problems, should have swallowed her pride, faced her fears, and CALLED FOR HELP… on the phone… weeks ago!

I read the Seger posts last night. While many of the owner’s posts struck me as oddly defensive and self-pitying (even for an angst-ridden teenager, which I once was), having not seen the horse or the vet’s report I was ready to give the owner the benefit of a doubt in the ongoing “mock trial.”

HOWEVER, Touche’s post said ALL that needs to be said in this matter, IMHO. This horse was described as being EMACIATED. No one with ANY knowledge of horses should have failed to notice that. That the owner did not call Touche, Touche’s daughter, her neighbors with horses, the breeder who gave her the horse, her former PC advisor, her future employer in Ohio (now where has she been?), or the vet and tell them HOW FAR the situation had gotten (something that was not apparent in her posts) and humbly ask for help is INEXCUSABLE.

I know she didn’t intend to kill Seger, but in my opinion what happened to Seger was involuntary manslaughter. Using her problems to justify his death is not a good defense.

Touche, I’m sorry that you have had to deal with this. I do hope that you will contact the Humane Society or ASPCA. This girl needs counselling if her concern for herself, fear/loathing of her parents, and/or her inability to deal with others, can override another being’s life.

InWhyCee

PS: No offense, Muley. Touche’s post upset me a great deal. I’m sure I’m not the only person who feels that they have been manipulated… invited along to watch but not to actually help, if you will.

[This message was edited by InWhyCee on Oct. 24, 2001 at 03:52 PM.]

[This message was edited by InWhyCee on Oct. 24, 2001 at 04:04 PM.]

[This message was edited by InWhyCee on Oct. 24, 2001 at 04:10 PM.]

Hello,
I’m sorry to say that I, too, have followed the saga of this horse and felt that the situation wasn’t as it was initially presented. Like many of you, I was trying to think of a way to get involved after reading the posts about the vet stating that Seger only had one month left. Unfortunately, he was euthanized the next day.

I’ve been trying to think of some constructive advice I can offer. You are a very well-educated group of posters, and most of my points have been made by others on this board. Perhaps it would be helpful to explain how animal control works.

For starters, the ASPCA and the Humane Society of the U.S. (HSUS) are national organizations whose work involves education and promoting legislative changes. ASPCA also has some animal control functions in New York City. As frustrating as it is, neither HSUS nor ASPCA has the authority to go onto anyone’s property and seize, or even examine, their animals, even if deliberate cruelty is involved. Only people who are legally allowed to enforce animal control laws in your city or county can do that.

Animal control authority is delegated to certain parts of the government, or to private groups, but this varies tremendously from state to state. For example, in Texas and Kentucky, the sheriff’s department responds to complaints of horse abuse. In Virginia, I believe one of the state vets must investigate large animal complaints (but not dog or cat calls.) In some areas, the county may have contracted out animal control to a non-profit agency.

Sadly, in some states, animal control only implies dog control or dog and cat control (yes, there are areas where they aren’t even legally obligated to respond to calls about cats!) In West Virginia, for example, the state cruelty codes do not apply to horses. If someone is starving a horse, at least in some counties of WV, there is nothing that can be done.

By the way, any non-profit may call itself an SPCA, or a Humane Society. However, neither the ASPCA nor the HSUS controls those local groups. There’s no copyright on the terms SPCA or Humane Society, so any group can use those titles.

Animal control investigations are bound by most of the same laws as any criminal investigation. The police cannot walk into your house at will, and animal control cannot walk into anyone’s barn or explore their property without either the owner’s permission, or a search warrant. They can make observations from public places, though - for example, starving horses may be seen from the road. That observation may be enough to convince a judge to issue a search warrant, if the owner refuses to allow animal control on the property.

There is a tremendous difference in how well animal control responds to horse calls, as some of you have observed. Enforcement tends to be more lax in the more rural parts of the country. One of my jobs at HSUS has been to teach equine cruelty investigation classes to animal control officers. ACO’s, as you can imagine, are much more experienced with handling dog and cat calls. Many of them are at a loss when confronted with a complaint about a horse, and have no idea how to counsel owners. (And, unless the animal is in immediate danger of dying, their job is to teach the owner to do a better job. They can’t confiscate the horse immediately.)

What owners themselves cannot or will not see is truly amazing. Again, to second some other observations, owners themselves won’t see or acknowledge that a horse’s bones are protruding. Equally amazing is how often they absolutely do not want to give up their horses, no matter how obvious it is that they’re over their heads. Those cases that involve ten or twenty or more horses being starved, happen all over the country. I will be helping out with a very large confiscation in a few weeks. These owners have horses, llamas, emus, everything, and were taken to court last year, with orders to improve the situation. The only reason animal control hasn’t taken the animals already is because they’re having to expand their facility to house them all. They’re expecting a court fight of at least 8 months before they’re given custody of the animals. And until the court gives animal control custody, the county is responsible for all the expenses of maintaining the animals, and may not adopt them out.

(I think I’m also trying to explain some of animal control’s hesitation to react as we might want them to, when we call in with a complaint about a horse. The case mentioned above is being handled by an outstanding agency.)

Okay, what can you do? Call animal control/sheriff’s department/whoever is in charge in your area when you see a legitimate problem. If they don’t respond, call them again. And again.

And a previous poster made an excellent point. Get involved politically in your area. Make sure your animal control regulations are adequate. If they’re not, work to have them changed. Make sure the judges and prosecuting attorneys in your area, who will have to sign search warrants and try these cases, understand that you think animal control is important. On this bulletin board, I’m preaching to the converted! It’s all those non-horse people out there that need to be educated.

I hope some of this has been informative. I’ve included contact information in my profile, but please be gentle - I don’t have a secretary to help with responses!

This has been a very sad situation, on so many levels.

Ellen Buck, D.V.M.
Director, Equine Protection
The Humane Society of the U.S.

Very informative post. I see you work right down the street from me. My first guess was that you worked for CVM, but I saw I was wrong;) …

Heather, I’m with you on HSUS, but thats an ENTIRELY different story. But as far as your “rescue” I had the exact same situation. When I brought Phoenix home, i made sure to put him away from the fields by the roads and to always have at least a light sheet on. I went through the SAME thing with the hair! Phinny lost ALL of his hair from (we thought) photosensitivity. He looked like a mexican hairless horse. It was appalling.
But I think I’d understand and welcome the fact that someone was “watching out” even if I had to answer to some type of authority. I think it would be easily explained and I’d welcome the interest in animal welfare.

Always,
FairWeather
If you ever reach total enlightenment while you’re drinking a beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose. - Jack Handy

http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/entrance.html

What a wonderful idea, Suzy.

Yes, let’s do set up a network of Horse Buddies, those who live within a 50 mile radius of each other who others can contact in times of need.

Let’s get the word out there so that others are aware that there is help available.

You are all making so many good points. What about a mission statement - something that would indicate to people needing help that our mission is to help; not to make their lives a living h*ll, but to offer them advice and guidance as needed.

Off on a little tangent here, but I want to relate something to you that happened in my area about 10 years ago - it’s both disturbing and uplifting. There were two horses kept in a paddock on a road that a friend of mine lived on. My friend and her daughter had one horse each (very well cared for). They noticed how thin both horses in the paddock were getting during the winter. They called a local vet about it, and his response was that it was just too much of a legal nightmare for him to get into and wouldn’t do anything about it. Shortly thereafter, one of the horses died of starvation. The uplifting part of this story is that my friend’s ELEVEN YEAR OLD daughter managed to talk someone who owned a trailer into going over to this place, getting the owners to agree to give it away (not too difficult), and bringing it home. Although the parents weren’t exactly thrilled that she brought home a starved horse, you can imagine how proud they were at her taking the initiative! They did an exemplary job of nursing him back to health and placed him in an equally good home in the summer.

Just thought you might all like to hear at least one happily ever after story about now.

What I find helpful is when people list their geographic location, not just as “somewhere in this universe”. Also email addresses for confidential conversations help.

I think we have the beginnings of that network. I know I have offered info and logistical help to Chanda in “the trailer search from hell” she is involved in.

Remember the poster from awhile back that was concerned about her leased horses that were out of state? She was frantically trying to get in touch with the trainer to no avail? If memory serves it was a fellow BB’er in the area of the horses that offered to do a drive by for her. I think everything was fine in the end.

The network is already here, but the bottom line is you can only do so much for people. At some point they have to want the help.

If we all were sure to keep our responses constructive to BB’ers asking for help instead of taking the judgemental “well anyone knows you do THIS” attitude. Or “When I had more money than GOD I flew in the nutrition specialist from Zurich to treat my horse.” Ok extreme, but you get my drift.

I sure value the relationships I have from this BB. We will endure…

“The older I get, the better I used to be, but who the heck cares!”

I guess my question is that if people really want to know the proper way to take care of a horse, wouldn’t they have looked into it long before they found the COTH board? Isn’t all that information easily found in any horse care book which can be rented from a library if funds are tight?

I think this is a great idea, but wonder if the people who use it will really be the ones who need to be using it. Maybe in the future, one of us should contact the ASPCA if there are too many red flags to ignore (spoken by someone who chose to ignore the red flags and regrets it

Behind every good woman lies a trail of men

Well, Eglinton, just read your post. I used to have my own barn. At a school function one night I met someone for the first time who said to me upon learning where I lived, oh, I’ve been to your place. When I looked quizzically at her because I’d never seen her before in my life she said, I go to all the farms around here when I see there are no cars in the driveway and I go through the barns to see if they’re doing a good job. You passed.

Can you understand my FURY at this woman to think that she was near my horses, poking around in their stalls when I was away from home? I quietly told her to never do that again or I would call the police. She said you’ll never know when I do it and I take it upon myself to see that people aren’t hiding anything. I love animals and I hate to see them mistreated, but don’t worry, your place was great.

I’m furious just thinking about this again.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eglinton:
If an animal is being taken care of then you have nothing to hide, right??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How awful! Define ‘taking care of.’ Some people insist horses be outside 24/7 or it’s cruelty. Some people insist horses be in stalls at night or it’s cruelty. Some think it’s cruel to blanket; some it’s cruel not to. Boarding barns have FIGHTS over windows & doors open or closed, and each side is CONVINCED their way is the right way.

So Eglinton, if I don’t do things your way, you’ll stick your nose in and call the cops on me? Yes, I’d call you a busybody and a Nazi and a lot more. And the SPCA? You’d better darn well know your local SPCA. What side of the open window/closed window, stalls/turn-out debate are they on? You’d be surprised how many SPCA people don’t know squat about properly caring for animals. Example: in my area I know two people turned down for adopting 2 dogs. Why? Although they lived on a 50-acre farm, the SPCA turned them down because the dogs would not be confined to the house or a kennel run when not under direct supervision of the owners. So the two very happy labs they have had for the past 10 years, who live a glorious life sunning in the sun or visiting in the barn with the boarders and horses, keeping an eye on everything, strolling their 50 acres…well, I guess that’s not allowed anymore. The SPCA says that is not acceptable. No more adoptions for you. If you were doing a “swell job” those dogs would be locked up in the house unless you were taking a walk with them.

I also know someone who had the SPCA come out to their farm because of a report of insufficient care of animals. The complaint? It was raining and the horses were not in the barn and were out in the field soaking wet. The animal control agent had to investigate. He came out, saw the run-in sheds, saw 5 healthy horses happily grazing in the rain, and went home again. But every neighbor along that road saw the truck and even months later I would hear, didn’t you used to board there? I heard the animal control people were out there last spring. So-and-so saw the truck. She must’ve been doing SOMETHING wrong or she wouldn’t have been reported.

Sorry, but I’ve seen too many busybodies and they are revolting. They don’t love animals, they love controlling other people’s lives.

Simmer down, folks.

No SPCA can do anything but enforce the law, which requires that an animal have food, water, shelter, and veterinary care. And I think everyone will agree that sport horse people probably take the greatest lengths to provide the most care – what we all think is appropriate may not be the same as someone else.

Anyway, that’s a topic for another thread.

Well this thread has gone around the block and back!

A couple of points - what I think Suzy is suggesting is what we in NH (where are you Suzy?) call being a good neighbor - that people know we have a bunch of horses and call us when they need some information - or some help. The non-profit intellectuals call it Social Capital and there’s a big fat book called “Bowling Alone” which discusses the demise of the social networks that connect people to one another. I think the horse community actually has a lot more of this than perhaps other sectors of the community, but I think Suzy is talking about strengthening what we already do in many situations.

I would be LIVID if someone came into my barn to “inspect” it while I wasn’t home. In some area’s she would be shot!

BUT, we have a friend who has some very well fed retired horses. She came home one day to find a note on her door from the Animal Control officer saying “Everything looks great”. She was amazed and furious.

Turns out her new next door neighbor, a city girl, had noticed that the horses were “just standing around, not doing anything” all day. So she called the authorities and reported abuse, and they were required to check it out. Our friend was relieved, and introduced herself and her horses to her new neighbor, and explained that “I give them a schedule every day, - trot to the left for 15 minutes, walk in a square for 20, eat grass for 20, roll on ground followed by a nap.” but they just don’t follow it."

Know the people in your area who have horses. Drive by, see what things look like, notice changes and DO something if you see any problems. But the key is the first - KNOW your neighbors - it will make it much easier for them to ask for help before there are problems.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kirsten:
Quote: " I think having people ready to pounce when “red flags go up” is ridiculous and dangerous.
"

I agree. Spooky, and reminiscent of a lynch mob.

And this is coming from someone with a fat, happy, shiny mare who lives the life of Riley…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

uhhh ok I think I need to clarify a few things. I wasn’t suggesting a network of people across the world who sneal around other BBers farms and call the police if their horses are skinny. This post was about what we can do. It was suggested that we form a network of people to help eachother out. OK great that’s one idea. My separate idea was to not be afraid to call the authorities…sorry I don’t see what is wrong with that? No lynch mob. As far as I am concerned my post was not going off track at all. In m-j’s situation, do you think it would have been more effective to call the authorities, or go barging in there and try to convince people they are doing something wrong when they think they are caring for their horse???

I believe the kid had good intentions at first. (Well, I’m hoping that is the case).
Horse starts loosing weight, she thinks shes doing all she can because thats all she Knows. She’s afraid to ask for help.
Her parents advise to sell the horse and she states that on the board.
Warning sign number one.
(Why are non-horsey parents saying to sell the horse?)
Another thread about the horses health and lots of excuses about not having vets in the area.
Warning number two.
MJ posts that she’s had “the dreaded talk”
BLARING warning Three.

But at what point does a person–who has no actual first-hand knowledge of the situation, nor any way to verify “ill” feelings, step in and say
“WHATS GOING ON?”
At what point do you step over that “cyber-line” on hunches and clues?
What if you are wrong?
What if you are right?
What are the ramifications of each answer?
I know each of us who had “the willies” about this since September is sitting here saying “If only I had…”
Chances are, the kid would NEVER have admitted to the actual severity of the situation for fear of this upheaval.
If she had, I’m sure she would have run into a few people who would persecute for waiting so long to come clean. But I am MORE THAN SURE that 98% of this board would COMMEND the kid for stepping up and saying “THis is huge, and I cant handle it”
I would have (I think…hard to say at this point)

Everyone here feels betrayed. And I’m sure more than a few of you feel horrible that you didnt make that call, you didnt say what was needed.
The plain fact is, this child WAS in denial. She would not have responded positivly I dont believe.

I know there are “rescue” pages all over the net. But some people dont want to go that route…They want private help…how can COTH provide a “web of support?” Perhaps the answer is a list of people willing to help if this type of situation ever comes up again. Maybe its the “cherry upper” COTH network. Maybe its a committment to be non-judgemental when someone needs ACTUAL, Physical help.
The horse had more than a weight problem.
Again, at what point do you read between the lines and start doubting your fellow posters?
Is it even our business?
I think it is.
FW.

Always,
FairWeather
If you ever reach total enlightenment while you’re drinking a beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose. - Jack Handy

http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/entrance.html

I have a truck and a trailer and a farm (in an emergency) and I’ll go anywhere necessary to help. Anyone can phone me anytime.
Is it possible to set up an “emergency help contact list”?

This is what it sounds like to me.
I would like to see someone from a bb come onto my property and offer advice or “report” to the bb what’s going on at my place and whether or not they thought I was doing an acceptable job of taking care of my horse …Yeah sure, that’ll happen.

Isn’t that the reason the ASPCA is in existance?

I think you guys are taking this a bit too far. I know y’all mean well, but your beginning to sound like a bunch of nosy old ladies who have nothing better to do than police the other people on this board to see that they are living up to your standards!

I don’t care if someone wants my help or not…if there horse is in trouble you can bet I am going to stick my nose into their business! And I don’t mean showing up on their doorstep with a truck and trailer to “rescue” their horse…I mean I will call the SPCA, the Humane Society, AND the police if I need to. If there is nothing wrong, then fine. If there is, great. I saved a horse. I have done it before and you can bet I will do it again. Sorry if I hurt someone’s feelings 'cause they thought they were doing a swell job with their horse…I will let the SPCA decide that. It’s their job. I can’t think of a few times were they have gone in, told the owner what is wrong with a certain situation, and left the horse where it was…but come back periodically to check on it. Of course if it is neccessary they will get the animal out of there…but really when it comes to the welfare of animals, feel free to call me a Nazi or a busy body or whatever else you want to call it. If an animal is being taken care of then you have nothing to hide, right??

Muley, I beg to differ. The “ultimate loser” in this situation is MOST DEFINITELY the horse. Sorry.

Go Bruins