How do carriage horses pull?

[QUOTE=Cielo Azure;4720650]
Cottage farm -I did go read the thread a few days ago and was struck by the pure lack of knowledge of not only carriage horses, but particularly of drafts.[/QUOTE]

Thank you Cielo,
I guess I came over dumber than I meant to :smiley:
I was just trying not to get in the middle of 2 passionate people who were throwing “terms” around that didn’t make any sense to the subject (type) they were each trying to defend.

I don’t have much experience in driving but I know there is a heck of a difference between a draft horse and how it moves and is put together and a carriage horse.

[QUOTE=cottagefarm;4720712]
Thank you Cielo,
I guess I came over dumber than I meant to :smiley:
I was just trying not to get in the middle of 2 passionate people who were throwing “terms” around that didn’t make any sense to the subject (type) they were each trying to defend.

I don’t have much experience in driving but I know there is a heck of a difference between a draft horse and how it moves and is put together and a carriage horse.[/QUOTE]

OK, I’ll play this game…

Here is one of my young registered drafts moving:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_FhWr9s1HI
What do you see as the differences between the way this horse moves and a “carriage horse?”

She’s a beauty, Jill!

Hey, Jill, what a wonderful video!!! The two perchies would make a terrific pas de deux! Thanks for sharing, and thanks for helping disprove the mistaken stereotypes about draft horses. There isn’t much they cannot do, and you just can’t beat the disposition!

I do remember - 40 years ago - when warmbloods were still in the developmental stage to what we see now - that the conformation judges would criticise those horses who were camped out behind, which was a desirable trait for pulling cannons or carriages, but not for sporthorse riding.

Is there a “difference” in Percherons bred for show

[QUOTE=Cielo Azure;4720797]
OK, I’ll play this game…

Here is one of my young registered drafts moving:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_FhWr9s1HI
What do you see as the differences between the way this horse moves and a “carriage horse?”[/QUOTE]

What a beautiful young mare. But as someone with very limited Percheron or draft of any kind experience, I have an honest question.

Are the Percherons being bred for show at this time “different” from older Percherons in their conformation or sheer “mass”?

I’m asking because I have an older registered mare now around16 who was a broodmare for 10 years at a big Ohio farm where she was bred-- but she looks nothing like the mare in this video.

Lou Lou is much more stocky looking and bulkier. I think her legs are shorter, too. I have been told that she comes from decent bloodlines and that some of the horses in her pedigree were sucessful show horses, so I am just wondering if the Percheron is evolving into a “lighter” heavy horse, or if there are two body styles-- the show Percheron and the work Percheron?:slight_smile:

[QUOTE=elysianfieldsfarm;4730670]
What a beautiful young mare. But as someone with very limited Percheron or draft of any kind experience, I have an honest question.

Are the Percherons being bred for show at this time “different” from older Percherons in their conformation or sheer “mass”?

I’m asking because I have an older registered mare now around16 who was a broodmare for 10 years at a big Ohio farm where she was bred-- but she looks nothing like the mare in this video.

Lou Lou is much more stocky looking and bulkier. I think her legs are shorter, too. I have been told that she comes from decent bloodlines and that some of the horses in her pedigree were sucessful show horses, so I am just wondering if the Percheron is evolving into a “lighter” heavy horse, or if there are two body styles-- the show Percheron and the work Percheron?:)[/QUOTE]

OK…you asked.

If you ask a farmer, they will tell you there have always been one kind of Percheron (the kind you have).

If you ask a hitch (show) person, those who know their breed’s history will remember that there have always been two kinds of Percherons (The French historical records even lists three-with one being inbetween). A lighter type and a heavier, drafty type. People used to call the lighter Percherons “fast drafts,” or “light” Percherons. I recommend a book called the "The Percheron Horse in America and in France by MC Weld (America part) and Charles Du Hays (French part). Written in 1886, this book really goes into detail over the two kinds. Copies can be picked up from Abes books for about $10.

After the early 1900s, most Percherons were heavied up for plow but the show animals retained a lot of the lighter blood in the USA. After WWII, there was a severe meat shortage and in France, the French breed standard was written to include them as a meat animal (which screwed up a lot of their lines -which is why they now keep importing our animals into France).

This PHAOA has NO BREED STANDARD (partly in reaction to the above -if you ask the old timers). Their reason is that the Percheron is a versatile animal, with many uses. One standard would not define all types.

The PHAOA association is a closed registry, no animal have been added the the stud book since 1904? except those imported from CA or France. In the 1950/60s, Percherons were down to 500 animals in the USA with very few in other countries too. So, genes are limited. A horse named Justemere Showtime (show animal) was breed to about half the horses left in the USA during this period (he was very popular), he is in almost every pedigree in the USA.

If you show seriously ub hitch, you need a hitch animal. A old fashioned plow animal just is not what one sees doing well in hitch shows. However, there are also lots of farm shows in the USA -most of draft horse farm days or plow matches, etc. Both for competition and for exhibition. The type of animal you have does very well. They make great riding and driving horses too but they do look different from most of my animals -note that the mare you were viewing weighs 1700 pounds at 18 hands! They aren’t that light.

Finally, people will argue this way or that about the types but I collect old Percheron stuff and the historical record really does show that there have been two types of Percherons since forever (early 1800s). I used to have pages on my website that had photos but when I redid my site, I never finished that part. Maybe I need to go back and finish it.

Here is a little section from the book above:
“THE ENDURANCE ON THE PERCHERON HORSE”
A gray mare bred by M. Bealavoris, at Almeneschus, in 1845, …performed the following match: -Harnessed to a traveling-tilbury, she started from Bernay at the same time as the mail courier …,and arrived before it at Alengon, having made 56 miles over a hilly and difficult road, in 4 hours and 24 minutes. This mare is still living."

A gray mare 7 years old, belonging to M. Construer, …in 1865 harnessed to a tilbury travelled 58 miles and back on two consecutive days, going at a trot and without being touched with the whip. This was over the road from…, a difficult and hilly way. The following time was made: The first day the distance was trotted in 4 hours, 1 minute, and 35 seconds; the second day, in 4 hours, 1 minute and 30 seconds. The 13 3/4 last miles were made in one hour, although at about the 41 mile the mare was obliged to pass her stable to finish the distance." (and that is the last sentence in the book).

The book also listed a number of mounted, timed trotting events with 160 horses to determine speed. They also did the same in harness. They were ridden way back when as well as driven and there is a reason they called them “fast drafts.”

Long story short, most Percherons were heavied up to work the plow but not all. Those old, lighter genes have been the backbone of the Percheron hitch horse for forever and a day.

Also, in France and Canada, many of the shows are broken up into heavy draft and coaching or light draft categories for their halter classes to accomodate both types of horses.

[QUOTE=Cielo Azure;4730771]
OK…you asked.

If you ask a farmer, they will tell you there have always been one kind of Percheron (the kind you have).

If you ask a hitch (show) person, those who know their breed’s history will remember that there have always been two kinds of Percherons (The French historical records even lists three-with one being inbetween). A lighter type and a heavier, drafty type. People used to call the lighter Percherons “fast drafts,” or “light” Percherons. I recommend a book called the "The Percheron Horse in America and in France by MC Weld (America part) and Charles Du Hays (French part). Written in 1886, this book really goes into detail over the two kinds. Copies can be picked up from Abes books for about $10.

After the early 1900s, most Percherons were heavied up for plow but the show animals retained a lot of the lighter blood in the USA. After WWII, there was a severe meat shortage and in France, the French breed standard was written to include them as a meat animal (which screwed up a lot of their lines -which is why they now keep importing our animals into France).

This PHAOA has NO BREED STANDARD (partly in reaction to the above -if you ask the old timers). Their reason is that the Percheron is a versatile animal, with many uses. One standard would not define all types.

The PHAOA association is a closed registry, no animal have been added the the stud book since 1904? except those imported from CA or France. In the 1950/60s, Percherons were down to 500 animals in the USA with very few in other countries too. So, genes are limited. A horse named Justemere Showtime (show animal) was breed to about half the horses left in the USA during this period (he was very popular), he is in almost every pedigree in the USA.

If you show seriously ub hitch, you need a hitch animal. A old fashioned plow animal just is not what one sees doing well in hitch shows. However, there are also lots of farm shows in the USA -most of draft horse farm days or plow matches, etc. Both for competition and for exhibition. The type of animal you have does very well. They make great riding and driving horses too but they do look different from most of my animals -note that the mare you were viewing weighs 1700 pounds at 18 hands! They aren’t that light.

Finally, people will argue this way or that about the types but I collect old Percheron stuff and the historical record really does show that there have been two types of Percherons since forever (early 1800s). I used to have pages on my website that had photos but when I redid my site, I never finished that part. Maybe I need to go back and finish it.

Here is a little section from the book above:
“THE ENDURANCE ON THE PERCHERON HORSE”
A gray mare bred by M. Bealavoris, at Almeneschus, in 1845, …performed the following match: -Harnessed to a traveling-tilbury, she started from Bernay at the same time as the mail courier …,and arrived before it at Alengon, having made 56 miles over a hilly and difficult road, in 4 hours and 24 minutes. This mare is still living." (this was would have been written from the first edition around 1865 -making the mare at least 33 years old).

A gray mare 7 years old, belonging to M. Construer, …in 1865 harnessed to a tilbury travelled 58 miles and back on two consecutive days, going at a trot and without being touched with the whip. This was over the road from…, a difficult and hilly way. The following time was made: The first day the distance was trotted in 4 hours, 1 minute, and 35 seconds; the second day, in 4 hours, 1 minute and 30 seconds. The 13 3/4 last miles were made in one hour, although at about the 41 mile the mare was obliged to pass her stable to finish the distance." (and that is the last sentence in the book).

The book also listed a number of mounted, timed trotting events with 160 horses to determine speed. They also did the same in harness. They were ridden way back when as well as driven and there is a reason they called them “fast drafts.”

Long story short, most Percherons were heavied up to work the plow but not all. Those old, lighter genes have been the backbone of the Percheron hitch horse for forever and a day.

Also, in France and Canada, many of the shows are broken up into heavy draft and coaching or light draft categories for their halter classes to accomodate both types of horses.[/QUOTE]

You MUST update your website with the photos and these stories. Fascinating!

[QUOTE=Cielo Azure;4730771]
OK…you asked.

If you ask a farmer, they will tell you there have always been one kind of Percheron (the kind you have).

If you ask a hitch (show) person, those who know their breed’s history will remember that there have always been two kinds of Percherons (The French historical records even lists three-with one being inbetween). A lighter type and a heavier, drafty type. People used to call the lighter Percherons “fast drafts,” or “light” Percherons. QUOTE]

Thank you so much for your very informative answer. I have a book on Percherons by a man named Mischka(sp). In his book, he says they were used first as war horses, then as farm animals and then as coaching animals and then back to farming animals-- mainly. He doesn’t exactly come out and say there are different types, but you can surmise that by his description that the farmers of La Perche produced the type of horses in demand at the time. I think the book is called The Percheron Horse in America

Lou Lou (that is actually her registered name) is my first Percheron, and was a “pity” buy. She has a very nice disposition, and I will only be using her to harrow pastures, plant grass seed and throw fertilizer using a Pioneer forecart, so I guess she is a semi-retired farm horse now.

I have a second Percheron, Barney, who came as part of a “must take him too package deal” along with a used carriage I bought. He is much taller and more “leggy.” He is just a “grade” Percheron and was suposedly used as a commercial carriage horse most of his life. He was under weight when he arrived, and I have been trying to help him gain weight. My vet says there is nothing “wrong” with him-- he just wasn’t being fed enough and is old – about 18.

He is very sweet and can really move when he wants to – mainly to get to his feed. Barney is really pretty when he is running and trotting in the field. It is amazing to see such a large animal gallop- and really funny when he lies on his back with his feet in the air wiggling around to scratch his back on the ground! He, too, is a semi-retiree.

I would not mind going to see a Percheron show if they had them in Louisiana (I don’t recall ever having seen one advertised), but I’m not intereted in owning show animals any more. My late husband and I used to show our flatshod walkers-- but that was more than 20 years ago.

I have gone to several of the “Farmers’ Days” around Louisiana and to the Pecan Festival in Richton, MS where there are draft farming demonstrations and the draft pulls (I really didn’t find the draft pulls to be my “cup of tea.”). I really did like seeing the farm demonstrations where they cut and gathered hay using different breeds of draft horses, and did a plowing demonstration.

At the Loranger Old Farmers’ Day, they had a timed “trail” class where teams pulling slides (stone boats) competed to run a course that had typical “farm chore” simulations-- stop open, go through and close gate; get mail from box; load and unload two bales of hay; load two goats; pump and load two buckets of water; negotiate around some traffic cones (like a barrel pattern), and then race to the finish. It was really impressive to see how well the teams obeyed the teamster’s commands. There were teams of mules, Percherons, Haflingers and Belgians entered. A team of Percherons won that class.

I guess most of the horses I have seen were the “farm” type like Lou Lou, though some of the Percherons were more lean and with longer legs. All of the Percherons seemed to have had much prettier heads than the other draft horses had. But the Percherons did not seem to do very well in the pulling contests-- those were usually won by draft mule or Belgian teams.

As for how the horses pulled, it really seemed to depend on what they were doing. The horses in the pulling contests seemed to “burst” forward all at once and really dig in with all four legs. The horses plowing also had more of a straining head down pushing and pulling look. But the horses pulling hay rakes or tedders or giving carriage or wagon rides seemed to be working off their rear legs more than their front, so maybe the heavy horses use themselves differently depending upon what they are being asked to do, or how they are trained to do a particular job.

This is totally OT as far as how horses pull but . . . One interesting horse I saw at a breed expo was a four-year-old Clydesdale trained as a trick horse. He did counting tricks, answered questions by nodding or shaking his head, walked up and down some steps, jumped through a large hoop and trotted around with his trainer standing on his back. He also opened and closed a door turning the doorknob with his mouth using his lips.

He also could bow, shake hands and “play” basketball by trotting up to a goal and putting a ball he carried in his mouth through the hoop, and soccer by pushing a ball along with his front hoof and into a goal net. at the end of the demonstration, his owner/handler explained that he had been bought out of the kill pen at New Holland as a two-year old. After the show, he “signed” autographs by making a hoof print on large cards that had his name printed on them. The children really liked that.

The main thing that has impressed me about all the draft horse breeds I’ve seen is their quiet gentle demeanor. I saw only one horse act up a little-- a young horse that was teamed with an older horse pulling a hay rake. Something in the crowd “spooked” the young gelding, but he could not do very much because the old mare just planted herself and would not let him run off. The team’s owner explained to the crowd that he had hitched the young one with the old experienced mare because this was his first farming demonstration day. The mare was so well-trained and experienced that she did not “give in” to the herd instinct to run with the young gelding, but instead obeyed her teamster’s command to “whoa”. That was a Percheron team.

So far, the only “down side” of having my two Perchies is the amount of food they eat. Those two eat enough for four regular horses!:lol:

“As for how the horses pulled, it really seemed to depend on what they were doing. The horses in the pulling contests seemed to “burst” forward all at once and really dig in with all four legs. The horses plowing also had more of a straining head down pushing and pulling look. But the horses pulling hay rakes or tedders or giving carriage or wagon rides seemed to be working off their rear legs more than their front, so maybe the heavy horses use themselves differently depending upon what they are being asked to do, or how they are trained to do a particular job.”

This exactly!!!

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