Over in the breeding forum, we somehow got onto the discussion of horses that pull things for a living, as that’s where the modern warmblood came from. Does the power come from their hind end? Or do they push into the collar with their forehand? What generates the power for a good draft horse to pull a heavy load?
Thanks!
At a simple level the carriage (or dead weight) is pulled by the traces which is attached to the collar at the front of the horse.
However just the same as with a riding horse, the power comes from behind.
It depends on what you actually meant though in terms of how much power, pull and push is required. e.g. are they talking about pulling dead weight? as per the photo in the post above. Or talking about moving a light well balanced carriage?
The latter, once it’s moving is really neither pulling nor pushing at all. But that’s another question.
Those horses in the photo aren’t pulling yet. The two people on the ground are still trying to get the evener bar hooked to the sled. The trace/tug chains are still slack.
Most pulling competition horses do lots of lunging due to the way they are trained. The trace/tug chains are known to fail during these explosive starts (very dangerous for bystanders in the missile path).
Work horses lean into the collar and use their front end and back end to pull a load. I would say that they are not collected when they work. They don’t need to support a rider’s weight on their back.
Sorry guys, I don’t think I know enough about it to ask the question right. What about…
Do they pull the majority of the weight of a dead load (like a plow or like in a pulling contest) with their front end or their hind end? In what area of their body do they generate the power to pull a heavy load?
Hope that was better, thanks for the replies!
The traces wh there’s quite a lot of horses swapping over from high level dressage to the 3 phase driving competition and also vice versa. Reason why? Same ability, same conformation, same balance, same impulsion, same athleticism required for high end ridden dressage as high end driven dressage.
If you feel that drivers can contribute on the thread then post us a link so we can join it and improve on any “fact-free” postings 
Or better still post a link to here over there and save us (me) the trouble of “doing my head in” having to read any garbage or fact-free anecdotal stuff on light or heavy harness horses. I too often find when I wonder into the Sports Horse forums that there’s a lot of bunkum, ignorance and speculation. :winkgrin: There also seems to be a total failure to appreciate that driving is what a horse DOES, not what it IS. That there’s a gulf of difference between a heavy agricultural cold blood bred for haulage and hard work and a light harness or coaching horse bred for gentleman’s sport or flashy transport. Think difference between a tractor or a ferrari (and everything in between!)
This link shows a harness chart all marked up with correct names so you can see what the traces are:
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/Driving/singlesharness0087.jpg)
You can’t look at any horse pulling a dead weight, 2x or 3x the weight of their body and make judgment about how the animals naturally move when hooked to a carriage, a hitch, being ridden or moving in a pasture. It is a very artificial situation. Drafts and horses are rarely asked to pull like that, and there was no widespread breeding program to breed for pulling like that.
Furthermore, in modern pulls -the traces hooked to the pulling sleds are hooked very low, bringing the horse’s body into an angle that requires a lot of front end power.
The angle of the traces, size of wheels, the type of collar used, how the weight is distributed are all going to factor into how the horse uses its body.
Think of yourself with a rope around your shoulders, pulling a boulder, think how you would lean into that rope.
Think of taking a horse cart and moving it across the barn, with each shaft in a hand. You would use completely different sets of skeletal muscles.
Same with driving, pulling (and farm work, which is usually somewhere in between). There are lots of different types of vehicles and uses.
Then think of all the different body types of the draft (short, squat, tall, leggy, short coupled, long-backed) -there is no one type of draft, as it is a category, not a breed. Not all were developed heavy pulling.
Really, trying to say that the way a draft (or any horse, such as Welsh ponies are used extensively in pulling contests too) uses it body in a pulling contest tp determine how it moves naturally is not correct.
[QUOTE=Thomas_1;4715340]
If you feel that drivers can contribute on the thread then post us a link so we can join it and improve on any “fact-free” postings [/QUOTE]
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246666
Driving horse discussion is about the post #150 mark or so.
^ Why did you do that??
I’m going to have to poke my eyes out with needles now!!!
I think it’s best to let them have a wonder over here and read the response.
Well said, Thomas!
Okay , Is there any conformational differences you look for in different breeds/types of horses used for driving. For example a horse dealing with a heavy load like a loaded dray. vs pleasure driving vs. CDE horse.
They all have very different jobs right so what conformation attributes would you look for in each one or are they the same?
Hey guys, sorry to barge into your board, but we needed some help understanding the mechanics of the draught horse. Obviously all work horses are pulling because sleds or carts are rarely in front of them to push. What we wanted to know, which I think was elequently stated and depicted was that the power starts from behind, works its way up through their back and through their shoulders. As is with dressage and jumping, this type of engagement is paramount to their sport. They can not be pulling that kind of weight or even a plow with their front ends. The pictures clearly shows the front end off the ground…they can not be contributing at all of they are not even touching the ground. Thanks Guys…love the pic. i am going to steal it.
Tim
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;4716211]
Hey guys, sorry to barge into your board, but we needed some help understanding the mechanics of the draught horse. Obviously all work horses are pulling because sleds or carts are rarely in front of them to push. What we wanted to know, which I think was elequently stated and depicted was that the power starts from behind, works its way up through their back and through their shoulders. As is with dressage and jumping, this type of engagement is paramount to their sport. They can not be pulling that kind of weight or even a plow with their front ends. The pictures clearly shows the front end off the ground…they can not be contributing at all of they are not even touching the ground. Thanks Guys…love the pic. i am going to steal it.
Tim[/QUOTE]
The photo was totally misleading. Sigh. To use it to demonstrate principles of driving or even pulling is just wrong.
NOTE the fronts ends were up because THESE HORSES WEREN’t HITCHED YET as soon as they were traces were to be hitched, those fronts end come down and the front ends DIG in. They weren’t pulling yet. Many of these horses are trained at home with stun guns or shock electrodes under the harness -that go off if they don’t pull hard enough, so you often see them lunge up to essentially get a running start or they get shocked. Getting a running start, is not starting from the behind. For clarification, I don’t know whether the horses in the photo were trained using shock devices, but many are. Of course, they use their back and front legs, they use every muscle, every bone in their bodies! But they are pushing -not pulling.
I like this team, because you can tell they haven’t been stunned -they don’t lunge. Note they are pulling (actually pushing), that they are standing on tip-toe on their front hooves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGfYvz6_b0Q&NR=1
B.T.W. Pulling horses PUSH into they collars, they actually don’t pull -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMTxHNp4-AM&NR=1
NOTE HOW THIS TEAM IS PUSHING INTO THE COLLARS, not pulling!
But again, pulling horses have nothing to do with driving horses: either hitch, or fine driving or even farm work. The type of animals and the conditioning is vastly different. Particularly, the conditioning that make pulling horses just that. The muscle sets and the types of muscles that are conditioned are so different than that of driving horses! Think weight lifting. These guys have a very specialized sport.
Think of weight lifters and backbackers. Both carry weight. Do they condition their bodies in the same way? Do they look the same? Do they move their bodies the same when working? Of course not! APPLES AND ORANGES!
These guys are pushing so hard into their collars, they are actually buckling at their knees.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoCOewBy0tU&feature=related
Nothing to do with driving whatsoever.
But note that they dance in place, and then pull (push). I would not say that the power is starting from behind, they are pushing into the collar -with their whole bodies -right from the start.
[QUOTE=cottagefarm;4715985]
Okay , Is there any conformational differences you look for in different breeds/types of horses used for driving. For example a horse dealing with a heavy load like a loaded dray. vs pleasure driving vs. CDE horse.
They all have very different jobs right so what conformation attributes would you look for in each one or are they the same? [/QUOTE]
:eek: Of course they’re not the same!
For example a horse dealing with a heavy load like a loaded dray.
Think the biggest and strongest. Those which the world depended on for power in agriculture and industry till the development of the combustion engine. Built for power not athleticism. Calm in nature and with size and musculature.
pleasure driving
Think of breeds that are quite flashy and showy and with good knee action and forward extension
CDE horse.
An all round sports horse. Athleticism and bravery and obedience. Think of 3 day eventing but with wheels.
[QUOTE=RyTimMick;4716211]
Hey guys, sorry to barge into your board, but we needed some help understanding the mechanics of the draught horse. Obviously all work horses are pulling because sleds or carts are rarely in front of them to push. [/QUOTE] Did you actually read a single thing I said in this thread?
The pictures clearly shows the front end off the ground…they can not be contributing at all of they are not even touching the ground. Thanks Guys…love the pic. i am going to steal it.
I’m thinking that the picture isn’t actually showing anything other than a couple of horse who know what’s coming and who have got a little excited.
The power comes from behind and then engages the front end to push into the collar and move the load.
Thomas, i was making a joke about the cart before the horse…sorry it slipped by you. I know there is a difference between a carriage horse and a work horse. In Holstein many needed them to do both, I am quite clear about the history. I have always been told that plow, and work horses must be able to push up through their backs from the rear. This is where the power comes from. This, as you said is also needed for many sport disciplines. We agree if you read my post.
Tim
The difference in Draft work and Carriage work, is that carriage drivers DO NOT want the horses pulling with their front ends unless they are TRULY stuck in heavy going.
Having a horse who PULLS with his front legs is UNDESIRABLE because he is then less able/likely, to be able to lighten/elevate his front end as desired in the jobs carriage driving asks of him. You can’t have light, floaty action, elevation, extension in his Dressage work, speed over the miles, if he is clawing with the front end. Pulling with the front end builds the wrong muscle structures. I do believe any driving horse should be willing, know HOW to pull in heavy ground with his front end if asked. I would not be asking often, but it is a trained-in skill, like handling a rope with a stock working horse. Pulling heavy things is something horse should have done a couple times so an immobile load does not frighten him on the first pull. You ALWAYS hear stories about the horse quitting or rearing, who never pulled a sleigh before. Sleighs may only weigh 300#, but their runners will quickly freeze in snow when stopped. Then sleigh load is often very resistant to a pull if not “broken loose” before asking horse to “walk-on” with the sleigh. The trained horse will stop, listen to direction to pull harder or break loose his runners with sideways movement, THEN walk off with no excitement shown. Runners will freeze fast in cold weather, often only a few minutes so driven horse has to LISTEN well.
Carriage Driving needs a horse using his rear end, since the power/engine of horse starts from behind, ALWAYS. CDE is a relatively new use for light horses, nothing like any previous driving needs. Our forebearers AVOIDED doing much cross-country driving, really hard on vehicles that are not metal!
We didn’t have the time and people able to engage in CDE as a sport until more recent times. Horses were for needed work, rich mens sports. People worked many more hours a week to get a basic living, not much play time. Average folks didn’t own horses, they rented them from the Livery. Pleasure Driving was popular, common, as an enjoyable activity. But Picnic drives, visiting, sightseeing the neighborhood is quite different than modern CDE demands of a horse and driver.
Many breeds of light horses and ponies are easily able to make a career as Pleasure Driving animals, both in the Ring or CDE.
Draft animals and a few light breeds, like Hackney horses and ponies, are DESIGNED for being driven, managing loads they are hitched to. Shoulder angles are more upright, which helps the efficient angle of draught (pronounced draft) to move loads behind them. There are past studies done to find the “perfect” angle of draught to get the most “horsepower” available from your farm animals. Horse books of the age, told the reader what kind of build, sizes, muscling, in horse would be most useful for various jobs. You didn’t buy speed horses to do heavy plowing. You didn’t buy plow horses to make fast trips to town. Farm Chunks, crossbreds with sturdy build were popular as multi-purpose animals, light enough for trips to town in good time, enough weight for plowing in all but the heaviest ground, stood up 15-16 hands and stayed in good flesh with good grazing and a scoop of grain. Economical to own for the farmer types, if they could only afford a couple equines to work his farm.
Size of animal can make a difference to how effiecient their pulling ability is. In the past, most heavy pullers had shorter, wider, massive animals. Modern draft horses (example Budweiser Clydes), are much more leggy, taller, than what the old-time farmers would ever buy. Leggy horses would be way too big in height, expensive to feed, to be very useful on most farms.
The Budweiser Clydes would have been delivery type animals, though still overly tall for past needs, They were still extremely showy, eye-catching for advertising their owners, the beer folks. Mostly used delivering big loads in areas not too far from home base, might need some speed for outlaying areas of the city. Modern Clydes don’t look like Clydes of 100 years ago. Budweiser had greatly influenced modern breeding in the USA, because of the exposure of their hitch horses.
As I understand it, the OP was interested in understanding the mechanics of driving horses.
The best way (IMHO) to truly understand the mechanics of a good driving horse is to watch them! Watch their movements, watch how they use their back and neck to balance over varying terrain, watch their overstep. You will see how they demonstrate the illusive concept of “throughness” that dressage folks do not understand – the power from behind traveling over the back and into the collar. Throughness is not accomplished by cranking the horse’s head into his chest! The draft horse’s pulling is an extreme example of the same “throughness” concept!
Of course not all driving horses are perfect; you will see many of the same problems that you have with saddle horses. Some are above the bit, some are behind the bit, and some are heavily on the forehand. But a well-trained and well-driven carriage horse is light in the front accepting contact with the bit. Too bad more dressage horses don’t look as good!
(Sorry, Thomas, if this is too anecdotal and devoid of facts. I’d hate for you to stick needles in your eyes again…)
Thomas
Thank you for your answer.
My original post was to do with how the OP and another person on the sport horse board were interchanding “draft” and “carriage” horse which are completely different types so I was trying to get some clarity in the situation .
[QUOTE=cottagefarm;4720534]
Thank you for your answer.
My original post was to do with how the OP and another person on the sport horse board were interchanding “draft” and “carriage” horse which are completely different types so I was trying to get some clarity in the situation .[/QUOTE]
Cottage farm -I did go read the thread a few days ago and was struck by the pure lack of knowledge of not only carriage horses, but particularly of drafts.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
