How do these front feet look?

[Ottbaxel]

I’ve been meaning to take and post pics for months but I finally got around to it the other day-and of course, they aren’t the clearest pics which I didn’t realize until I got home🙄 Hopefully they are good enough!

These are the feet of my 18 year old gelding. He’s got hock OA, neck OA, etc. I’ve been contemplating what, if anything (as he’s semi-retired), I try for his neck but just recently while evaluating his posture I noticed he was standing camped under in the back-took rads, he was neutral, put wedges in the back, and he’s starting to look better back there.

What I have been noticing more so lately now that it’s on my radar, is he also stands a little camped under in the front. It’s not super noticeable but when I point it out to others they do see it. Could be his neck, but could be his feet. He’s really knotted up around his chest/shoulders/thoracic sling area which I’ve always chocked up to the neck, but I really do wonder if he has some heel soreness or something. I’ve also noticed when standing on Sure Foot pads that he prefers putting weight on the toe. I’m going to ask my vet and have this looked at-but in the meantime I need to educate myself on evaluating a good shoe job with correct hoof angles.

Does his heel look really underrun? Would it make sense for his heels to be sore based off these feet?

[Ottbaxel]

just bumping this since I posted late at night!

[beowulf]

Where is he in his trim cycle?

He could stand to lose some toe and yes, it looks like his heel is run forward - but if it’s late in the trim cycle it’s something your farrier could address next reset. I’d be curious to see what his heels and frogs look like under the pads.

The wedges behind will probably help short term, but what is your farrier doing to correct the trim going forward? You don’t have to answer me, that’s a question for your farrier. How long have you had this one?

Standing camped under and/or standing slightly over in the front is very common with CA horses. They are protecting their soreness.

[Ottbaxel]

Sorry I meant to add that - he is about three and a half weeks into his cycle. Next trim is 6/10!

My farrier is supposed to be trimming the toe in the hinds a lot more than before we discovered the npa. It’s only been a couple cycles so I haven’t noticed a huge difference yet.

I always assumed part of the reason he stands that way is because of the OA like you said - and same for why he has the occasional stumble at the walk. But taking him out hacking and going over a gravel road the other day he stumbled multiple times, and when prodding around his heels on the front feet afterwards he seemed to be a bit sore in the heel. Which got me thinking that his OA in his neck has not progressed in the past few years, but standing parked under in the front has-so perhaps the feet are an issue too.

I’ve always assumed his little problems (stumbling occasionally at the walk, going downhill very very slowly) were just neck issues, but now I’m considering if they are neck AND feet issues compounded.

[JB]

3.5 weeks into a cycle tells me he needs more trimmed off each time, OR the cycle length is too long for his rate of growth.

Have you ever done lateral xrays of the feet?

[beowulf]

Very possible to be both neck and feet at once. I agree with JB that at 3.5 weeks, he needs more toe trimmed off each time. The farrier will also need to lower and gradually back the heel to where the horn is growing straight, not forward. It’s a process.

Is your farrier the type to be able to fix this? Or are you in this position because they have been your farrier for a while?

Depending on what’s going on, the pads might make things worse. If he’s got thin soles and/or a lot of bar growing into the sole, sometimes the additional pressure of pads hurts, especially on gravel. That’s something you’ll have to look at when he gets his shoes reset. If you can, try to snap photos of his frog and sole before the farrier tacks on a new shoe. The longer the toe, the more stretched out the hoof capsule which generally means thinner soles. Correct the toes and the sole tends to thicken.

You generally should see improvement within 2 trim cycles, if they are shorter (4-5 weeks) and if your farrier is correcting the issue. IME, it’s very hard to convince a farrier they’re not trimming correctly, even with vet intervention. Sometimes they do better for a few cycles, but then they relapse - as difficult as it is, if this has been your farrier for a while, it may be time to look for someone who consistently has clients with correct feet. You can always ask someone who their farrier is, and most will tell you.

[Ottbaxel]

Honestly, I think he could benefit from both a shorter cycle and more trimmed off. My vet years ago said he should really be on a 4 week cycle, and at the time he was on a 6 week cycle. My farrier didn’t want to do it so we settled on 5, but obviously it’s not always exactly 5 weeks apart every time so if he goes a little longer I for sure notice under saddle.

I have done lateral rads but it’s been a couple of years so I wouldn’t trust how accurate they are anymore.

[Ottbaxel]

@beowulf

IME, it’s very hard to convince a farrier they’re not trimming correctly, even with vet intervention. Sometimes they do better for a few cycles, but then they relapse - as difficult as it is, if this has been your farrier for a while, it may be time to look for someone who consistently has clients with correct feet. You can always ask someone who their farrier is, and most will tell you.

Ugh this. So, I tried to switch my other gelding to one of the other two farriers that come to my barn (both of whom I think do a great job), but they wouldn’t take me because they don’t want to “steal” my farrier’s clients. I ended up finding a different guy to do my other gelding but it cost an arm and a leg because of travel fees.

So, I would love to try a new farrier but I’m unsure how to go about it without dumping a ton of money into this guy who is semi-retired. I’m almost tempted to take off the shoes and make him barefoot - and then I could switch to a barefoot farrier as there is one nearby who specializes in it, and they would probably take me as a client. It would be a big adjustment for him, but when he fully retires he’ll eventually be barefoot anyways.

[Ottbaxel]

The other thing I’m considering doing is switching him to barefoot in the hinds, trimming some of the toe off myself between cycles to work on the npa, and then if that goes well then doing the same for the fronts. That’s a bit nerve-wracking and I would have to do a lot of research before feeling comfortable doing it, but I could certainly try.

OR I’m thinking about first keeping the hinds the same, but taking the pads off the fronts so I can get a better view of his frog/heel in case he has some sort of thrushy business under there making him tender too. He’s had these pads for years and at this point I don’t even remember why we put them on-but I’m certainly willing to leave them off and see what happens.

I know those are two totally different thought processes. but both are ways to eventually try and get the fronts better.

[JB]

I think trialing barefoot behind is a good option. Sometimes, allowing the foot to wear on its own helps speed up the process of fixing or at least improving things. You’d need to work on heels and toes, not just toes, as NPA feet like to crush heels, so a few swipes a week can help keep them back

The ELPO hoof mapping guide is pretty fool proof in showing you where landmarks are, their function, and then telling you pretty clearly what material needs to go. The great thing is you can map to your heart’s content, getting feedback each time, without ever taking a rasp to the foot, until you have a pretty good mapping. Then you can start with little things, and work your way to removing more if needed

ProtocolStudyGuidePack.pdf

The whole study material list is here
https://www.lamenessprevention.org/site_page.cfm?pk_association_webpage_menu=6600&pk_association_webpage=13307

[Ottbaxel]

This is what I’m leaning towards - however my vet also told me that hind shoes usually help with back soreness (which he has, from a variety of things) so I’m worried his back will get sore if I pull them too. Too much to think about!

[Ottbaxel]

So, while I decide what to do, in the meantime is there anything I can do for the sore heels in the front? A poultice for the soreness, or a hoof boot I can try over his shoes for hacks so rocks can’t get his heels? Basically just anything that can help with the sore heels before I actually do any farrier changes.

[JB]

@Ottbaxel

my vet also told me that hind shoes usually help with back soreness (which he has, from a variety of things) so I’m worried his back will get sore if I pull them too.

And then there’s the other thread here from the other day, with the horse with various arthritis issues including lumbar, who is happier without shoes

I don’t think it’s fair to say shoes usually help back soreness. It depends too much on what “back soreness” really means, the conformation of the legs and feet, and what the shoes are doing that can’t be done without them (like a breakover all around)

@Ottbaxel

while I decide what to do, in the meantime is there anything I can do for the sore heels in the front?

it depends on why they’re sore. Boots over shoes don’t tend to last long. Rocks really shouldn’t be getting to his heels with those pads on. If they’re sore because they’re contracted, there’s not a lot you can do while this shoe/pad setup is on. If he’s barefoot, there are a lot of boot choices with inserts that are designed to help with heel pain

[Ottbaxel]

@JB

And then there’s the other thread here from the other day, with the horse with various arthritis issues including lumbar, who is happier without shoes

I saw that! And am super curious about it…it did make me wonder if this could actually benefit him. He’s had hind shoes on the whole time I’ve had him so I really don’t know if he truly “needs” them.

[IPEsq]

My farrier would say that camped under in front can mean his heels are actually too tall and/or toes or breakover are brought back too much in comparison to the whole foot. You can’t see much with the shoes and pads on there to assess the overall ratios of the foot. Perhaps he’d be more comfortable in a different pad setup.