How do you choose a horse to claim? (A learning moment)

[Xctrygirl]

Hi Guys,

Just coming here because I was going over some things and I realized that in my life experiences on the track I never really learned how one chooses a horse to claim for racing purposes of course. So for fun I was trying to teach myself and see if by coming here to the well you all could impart some generic insight (don’t give away your secrets!) of how you would choose to claim one.

I have a couple theories and I’m not sure if any of them necessarily hold water. [LIST=1]

Find the horse in the low percentage barn that's reliably knocking on the door. (Say you have a trainer who is themselves winning under 10% of the time and they have a horse who is finishing in the top 4 steadily. Would we maybe draw the conclusion that in the 'right' barn that horse could possibly step up and win?

Find the consistent horse that tries no matter what conditions it's connections run it under. Especially like the ones who can figure out how to land in the top 3 at sprints and in routes over any surface.

Breeding and sales prices? I'm far more skeptical of this since I own some really well bred sport horses that didn't come close to fulfilling their track potential.

Watching the horse itself. I have made a lot of money betting on horses based off what I see with my own two eyes. It's not (obviously) an exact science but lord knows my bank account was happy with this methodology.

Find the horse that looks like it's trying the most. Even if the jockey rides poorly, the trainer puts it in ridiculous spots, etc. [/LIST] So essentially I am just plain curious. When I worked in a claiming barn I wasn't so sure what our methodology was and my boss told me his thoughts, "look for consistent," and that was about it. We had some nice horses that we claimed and then some real dogs. Didn't seem easy and I don't think it is, but I just wondered since the later barns in my race career were not claiming at all. (Matz, Jackson, Fout)

Many thanks for your input.

Emily

[Palm_Beach]

No no no no no and no.

At the claiming level, it’s all about the condition book.

[Laurierace]

My strategy was a little of all the stuff you mention. My favorite were horses who had back class but had been off for a while and doing ok. Conditions were great, NW2 was best but NW3 was ok as long as they still had the 1X. Even better was if they ran for a relatively low tag off the layoff so they were eligible for starters for the whole year. The icing on the top is a so so trainer and a pedigree that suggests they will like the off going or turf.

[Xctrygirl]

@Palm Beach

No no no no no and no.

At the claiming level, it’s all about the condition book.

That’s all well and good but why not explain what you mean and how the condition book relates to your method.

For me (with no less than 6 tracks nearby, and the ability to throw in a point to point or NSA flat race) I have a LOT of options/ conditions books to play with.

So let’s hear how you use yours.

Emily

[Palm_Beach]

You don’t have as many options as you think. Some tracks won’t let you claim a horse unless you’ve lost a horse there, and most of the time you end up in jail if you are allowed to claim a horse. Race horse training is way different than the show and event world, which is why many many good horsemen do not make successful race horse trainers.

You need to understand all the rules and regulations of the state in which you are running/claiming horses. For example, in DE:

http://regulations.delaware.gov/Admi…001/1001.shtml

Read very carefully, there are lots of rules and restrictions wrt ownership and claiming.

I pay someone to train my race horses - that person’s head is a condition book and state rule book encyclopedia. I understand it, but I can’t do it. It’s an occupation. If it was easy enough to explain in a post, I’d be doing it myself.

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;n9772014

I pay someone to train my race horses - that person’s head is a condition book and state rule book encyclopedia. I understand it, but I can’t do it. It’s an occupation. If it was easy enough to explain in a post, I’d be doing it myself.[/QUOTE]

Aka “I don’t know.” Thanks for weighing in on the conversation.

[Xctrygirl]

@Palm Beach

Let me get this straight. My ways listed above are wrong, but your trainer is the brains of your operation but you don’t know how he picks the horses you claim.

But it all lives and dies on the condition book, that you pay someone to stay on top of.

Ok.

I’m gonna think there may just be more than one way to skin a cat.

Emily

[Laurierace]

What does it’s all about the condition book even mean?

[Texarkana]

The irony of this conversation is you have an owner replying to a licensed trainer and assistant trainer in a tone that implies they do not understand the sport.

This is a great example of one of racing’s biggest deficits-- communication. I understand the stakes are high, but there is no reason there can’t be constructive and educational conversation. The whole “shroud of mystery” thing that racing has hidden behind for most of its existence does not jive well with 21st century patrons.

[Bug_Boy]

@Palm Beach

most of the time you end up in jail if you are allowed to claim a horse. Race horse training is way different than the show and event world, which is why many many good horsemen do not make successful race horse trainers…

This can’t possibly be true. If claiming a horse resulted in jail time “most of the time” I daresay no horses would be claimed. I know literally dozens of people who have claimed horses, and none have done any jail time (well, at least not for the claiming).

[Laurierace]

No that part is correct. The only time there isn’t at least a little jail time following a claim is when a meet is ending. It is usually 30-45 days and sometimes comes with a requirement to raise them up for a while to prevent someone from claiming a horse for 10 and dropping them in for 5 for example.

[Pronzini]

Palm Beach’s reply is essentially correct if a little cryptic.

The main thing an owner needs to consider when dropping a claim is “Why do I need to own this horse?” which may be an entirely different thing than why a trainer wants to claim a horse for you.

Considerations:

Conditions – are there races where this horse can compete successfully? If he wins today, does he burn through his conditions? Is he a turf horse at the end of the season and the tracks are switching to dirt? has he been running against age restricted horses and has to run against older? Is he a maiden claimer and therefore the tag is probably inflated? Is he state bred? Does his best distance and surface come around every three weeks or do those races just not fill so you might even be waiting months to run him back? That just really scratches the surface. The really important question when you drop is do you have a plan if the horse is what he appears to be and not some big homerun that comes up once in a blue moon

Physical-- is the horse basically in one piece? Are the physical issues manageable? (This is why claiming trainers are down at paddocks when they aren’t running them–they are marking legs on the ones they are interested in. Some trade information with others who have had the horse in the past.)

Sex and age–really part of conditions. Fillies may also have some (but usually not alot) of residual value as broodmares

Personalities–some trainers will not claim from other trainers so you are SOL if you want a horse from that barn. Some trainers are leery of others because they have been burned before. Then there are trainers so good that few can move a horse up on them and trainers so bad that the horse may be an impending trainwreck and the guy doesn’t realize it but you will when you take possession.Some trainers are good caretakers but mismanage the horse so there may be an opportunity. If you watch the claiming game at your local track, there will be patterns as to who claims from who.

And these are just some things to consider…

[mommy_peanut]

@Bug Boy

This can’t possibly be true. If claiming a horse resulted in jail time “most of the time” I daresay no horses would be claimed. I know literally dozens of people who have claimed horses, and none have done any jail time (well, at least not for the claiming).

They don’t mean the claimer/owner gets put in actual jail. It’s a term used for recent claimers having to run back at a higher tag.
…“In many states, you will have to run back at a higher claiming price if your horse wins the race you claim him from. This is known as being in jail.”

[Laurierace]

@mommy peanut

They don’t mean the claimer/owner gets put in actual jail. It’s a term used for recent claimers having to run back at a higher tag.
…“In many states, you will have to run back at a higher claiming price if your horse wins the race you claim him from. This is known as being in jail.”

Actually being in jail means you can’t race the horse at any other track for a matter of time. Most of the time jail also has a raise attached to it like you mentioned but not always. Where the horse finishes has no bearing on anything except the loss of the condition of applicable.

[mommy_peanut]

@Laurierace

Actually being in jail means you can’t race the horse at any other track for a matter of time. Most of the time jail also has a raise attached to it like you mentioned but not always. Where the horse finishes has no bearing on anything except the loss of the condition of applicable.

Hmmm is that different from state to state? I got the quoted info from the DRF, figured they should know what they are talking about

[jolise]

We do a little bit of claiming at Santa Anita. My partner is very good at picking them.
I think on your list #1, 2, 4 and 5 seem to work well for us. Our goal is to have fun and minimize risk. Would like to find the next graded stakes horse in the claiming ranks, but pretty unlikely to do that.
What has worked well for us is to find a horse that tries hard and finishes in the money a good percentage of the time. My partner has a number of trainers he won’t claim from for various reasons. Usually look for horses between 3-5 year olds that are on the upswing and currently with a low percentage trainer. The horses we have claimed in the 20K and above range have worked out better for us in the long run. Also, look for horses that don’t seem to be spotted well ( surface, distance) who might move up when placed differently
He then has the trainer look into the horse and if we all 3 agree then we drop the claim

[Palm_Beach]

@Texarkana

The irony of this conversation is you have an owner replying to a licensed trainer and assistant trainer in a tone that implies they do not understand the sport.

The only one I replied to was Emily, and I have no idea what license Emily holds. And the licensing process is not much more than filling out a form, paying a fee - and answering some questions if you want a trainers license. I’ve held every license but a trainers license in most East Coast states that race. And having a license does not mean you are actually good at what you are doing. There are plenty of trainers who just cannot find the winners circle on a consistent basis.

[Laurierace]

@mommy peanut

Hmmm is that different from state to state? I got the quoted info from the DRF, figured they should know what they are talking about

Think about it, if you were arrested and put in jail you couldn’t go anywhere. When a horse is claimed it is put in virtual jail in so much as it can not go anywhere else until that jail period is up. The raise is often included as well but that is not what makes it jail.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Thanks for the explanation of claiming “jail” for the more neophyte among us (I didn’t know that was a “penalty” of claiming a horse, that there might be stipulations associated with it when/where/how it could race next.)

[Laurierace]

People like Michael Gill for example would swoop in a track somewhere on the West Coast, claim a crap ton of horses and immediately ship them East so the previous connections never got a chance to claim them back where they lost the horse. Jail helps prevent someone from draining the horse population of a track like that.