This stout fella, whatever he is - the last link in Manni’s post # 12
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Great question!!
I loved some things about Totilas but I always missed the elasticity/fluidity and relaxation.
I’m interested in the comment about testing the horse’s submission to a half-halt – is this done in auction settings? It reminds me of making the jump chute a “question” to see if the horse adjusts his jumping to the needs of the chute.
Interesting discussion, thanks!!
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I love all your input and please keep them coming. I am trying to find videos which I can post without offending anybody. Some are good riders, some are average riders and if you have any, please post them too!! Maybe you post videos of great movers or of movers which you think are not great movers or don’t have good gaits…
And Staceyk the testing was not done in auction setting with all the excitement. It was done in the indoor arena in our riding club. Of course the young horses were brought there, so it was exciting for them. But it was interesting because that was an important factor for selecting the young horse for the auction. It was very interesting to watch, when you saw how the young horses were doing half halts for the first time in their life. Some of them just knew WTC.
I have two other videos for you which I think you can really use for comparison… And would love to hear some opinions about them. I will not give my opinion first. Both are my young horses. Sorry none of them under rider because it is always tricky for me to have somebody. But they are taken both on the same ground and both lunging. So a lot of factors are the same. One is 3 and one is 4
The 3 year old
https://www.facebook.com/ulrike.bsch…9960756018045/
and now the 4 year old
https://www.facebook.com/ulrike.bsch…8298489517606/
https://www.facebook.com/ulrike.bschorer/videos/1899275373419916/
I think they are really great to look at differences how a horse can move…
and even more interesting, the 3 year old is a true warmblood type and the 4 year old more a TB type…
Oh and I hope you will classify none of them as a bad mover 
I am just going for differences in using the body, suspension and reach and how it influences the gait…
And I did add a video under rider for the 4 year old just to look how it changes or not changes under a rider… And don’t worry if you don’t like something write it… This is only for schooling the eye…
My comments below in blue…
sorry for this post, I hope its understandable… it was difficult to quote… And please post videos… It would be interesting to see what you talk about!! I think it would be great for the discussion
For me, this is not an issue - most young horses cross canter in the field. I bred horses for several years, and I board the occasional high-end Warmblood baby, and every. single. youngster cross canters in the field, and all of them have a variety of changes - clean, late, front first, back first, when they are playing. What happens in the field is totally different from what happens under saddle. I look for a young horse in the field that is forward and has some natural balance. I have learned that the gaits can change dramatically under saddle.
And when watching horses play at liberty - the trot is always going to be bigger and “puffier” then what you get with a rider. Even a little QH can get a real fancy trot going when it is showing off in the field. Our goal as riders is to come as close as possible to that “at liberty” trot. Generally, the canter is not as good, and the trot is fancier when watching a horse at liberty. And that really gets back to Manni’s comment about horses using their backs (along with a rider helping the horse obtain a different balance) - a tense horse (tight back) can create a huge trot, but a tense horse’s walk and canter lose quality.
Sadly, this is true - the walk is more or less ignored, especially at the higher levels. I see a LOT of bad walks - that should not even score a 6. Improper walk rhythm is ignored or not seen - it should NOT get a 6, a lateral walk should get a 4 at best. And since there are only a few walk movements scored, the walk has become almost a non-issue in dressage. I am always puzzled why a judge feels a 6 is appropriate for a pure but non-fancy trot, AND a 6 is appropriate for an impure walk. That tells me scope and brilliance are valued more then rhythm and regularity 
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I don’t really agree with you on that… Suspension is not suspension… A horse which uses his back is easy to sit… A horse which doesn’t is not easy to sit… So there is more to it… And thats why judges expect riders to sit the trot… The postillions were 100red of years ago and did not ride dressage but went from one point to another…
Sorry, I disagree. A flat moving horse is generally easier to ride then a big, boingy horse. I agree, when they use their back well, they are EASIER to sit then when they brace their backs, but… There is a reason that so many people are flocking to Andalusians - who tend to have smaller, flatter gaits and very still backs. They are easy to sit! Several years ago, there was an Arabian at a barn where I rode - she had the typical tight Arab back, and long, flat strides - honestly, I could barely tell whether she was walking or trotting when I rode her, it was that smooth. Big gaits are NOT easier to sit. Ride a few smaller moving horses, and come back and tell us that. Or even better - a gaited horse - the reason those gaits are SO smooth is that there is NO MOMENT OF SUSPENSION. The reason the Hunter world values those daisy cutter trots - flat is easy.
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Please, now we are back to the regular discussions… Big gaits are bad and small gaits have disadvantages… Thats not what I wanted to discuss here… I wanted to look at the gaits!!! Why does one horse look different then another one… What makes a horse a pretty mover??? What parts of the gaits contribute to that???
I do not want to talk about what judges reward or don’t reward…
So MysticOakRanch you said a free moving horse looks better then under rider and thats because of tension… So please compare the two videos of my 4 year old one on the lunge and one under rider… Believe me I can take it… What differences do you see in these videos… Does the horse move different?? if it does, why do you think it does?? Is there tension in the horse in one of the videos?? Why do you think there is tension if there is tension…
Thats the things I would like to discuss in all the videos, I think thats a different aspect…
I couldn’t get your videos to load - the FB videos said they were not available, so I can’t really comment on them. I’m saying that a horse trotting at liberty when it is excited is always going to look fancy - even a small moving horse gets bigger and loftier when it is excited. And it is partly tension. Look at the tail flipped over the back, the snorting and extra flared nostrils that you often see in those “at liberty” videos. And that does get back to what judges’ may reward. A softly swinging back is NOT always rewarded. I would post video, but I don’t want to offend any well known riders, but we see it all the time especially at the lower levels - and they are scoring huge scores. I show and scribe a lot (and have been through the L program), so I see if from multiple views.
Headed off to scribe for the day, so leaving the conversation.
Have fun with scribing!!!
very sorry, switched the videos to public now. So now everybody should be able to see them
Manny is doing a “bad” thing and adding content to older posts instead of adding new posts. Didn’t see that link in her original when I looked at it and made my comments.
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Sorry… you 1. don’t get to choose how people respond and 2. by your own statements and questions, responses require the dialog of how the gaits are judged. You can not separate the 2 things and talk about gaits and dressage. Perhaps if you want to discuss only the gaits as part of each breed’s characteristics… which seems to be where you are going, then perhaps that would be better suited to the breeding forum.
You will not get a consensus on “pretty” Saddlebred people think gaited horses are “pretty”. I think them an abomination. “Pretty” has nothing to do with scoring and correctness. Period!
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My take on good gaits (in my own rambling words)
This is so much more than lift and airtime. We need to think about why those things are brought out in some horses and not others. Straightness, rhythm, and relaxation- do you know why each of these related to gait quality, specifically? I can tell you.
I have seen gait quality change DRAMATICALLY when conditions change! both + and -/ So you must think of variables that change rhythm/relaxtion/suppleness, etc.
TEMPO of the horse is paramount. A rushed or slow horse will suffer in gait quality.
In all gaits the back and core muscles are seen “rippling” and activated, this leads to the best lift and schwung. There is an overall look of power and coordination.
Walk: the horse shows a clear V moment. Hind and front legs- neither overpower the other in “strength”. Horse shows deliberate 4 beats with a definite “beat” in each footfall. There is a natural straightness to the hips and shoulders. The legs are straight, don’t paddle/wing, or cross in. The hocks don’t come beyond the line of the tail. The front legs do not get placed too far out in front, but show a distinct elevation of each shoulder/rotation of shoulder. No lateral tendency
Trot: each diagonal pair mirrors the other, again hind and front match in intensity/scope (the angles made are equal). We all know what suspension is, so I won’t go into lift. Again, just as in walk there is no shuffling of the hooves- each beat has it’s clear 1-2-1-2 rhythm, this is maintained with no half beats/loss of this 1-2-1-2 quality,
Canter- the hind legs seperate from each other and show independent stepping under, horse is not wide behind, shows straightness in hips matching shoulders (again, taking into account natural asymmetry). Inside leg shows a clear stepping under quality realative age/training. The back is elastic and shows this looseness I mentioned in the beginning. There is no hopping/sticking of any of the hind legs, clear 1-2-3 phase.
I have seen these qualities in all breeds
I am sorry if I did a bad thing. I am not very good in quoting… usually I create a post and then I add all the quotes I need for it after it one by one… I have no idea how to do it at one time… So you quoted my post while I was still adding quotes… And I think that was the reason you had problems seeing them, because I was still working on them… I apologize again for beeing too slow…
I guess I don’t have a choice how people will answer, but I can still mention that I want it to go in a different way… If people don’t listen to me I can’t help it… And the discussion about the judging of the gaits is very old and has been done a million times. But I don’t remember a discussion about analyzing the different feature of gaits…
I haven’t found the trot of a driving horse ridden yet, maybe Pluvinel will provide it because he wrote that they are the favorite dressage horses nowadays. It would be great to have those videos for comparison…
My idea would really be to pick to horses with similar gaits and compare why those horses still look very different. What body parts are involved to produce this specific gait. I see many horses everyday and most of them do not move alike. Every horse is different. There are some features which are needed for smooth and good gaits and which are important to look for but every horse still has its own way of doing it…
But I will try again…
Here are two video links (hope they work) which I posted before
Both are chestnuts, both are trotting, both have even some similarities, but still the horses move different… Why do you think this is the case?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOpHKxWMP7g
the second video starts to be interesting around .30
Well, I will tell you what I think I’m seeing. First - lovely horses! I want them both. But seriously, I think the horse in the first video shows less suspension, less reach and the rhythm is less marked than the horse. Also seems not as “loose” and free - as if there’s more potential that could be developed over time once the horse loosens up his/her joints and swings more.
The second horse has a very reliable, even rhythm, more “air time”, and it looks like ALL of its joints (shoulder, elbow, hips, stifle, hocks) are bending and moving more freely. Second horse looks to have more balance.
Why - I wonder if the footing plays some difference (grass with some irregularities in the footing or slope vs smooth arena), and if the first horse is younger or earlier in its training.
Regarding rhythm - while watching the first horse, I get a little bit of a feeling holding my breath in hopes that the horse will keep rhythm. In the second, the rhythm seems so reliable I don’t think about it.
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To answer my own question about “good gaits” vs “good (or pretty) mover” - I tend to think of “good gaits” as a more objective thing, and “good/pretty mover” as subjective - what pleases a particular individual’s eye.
So good gaits, no matter if they are big, smaller, flamboyant, conservative, etc would be 1) regular rhythm 2) moving in balance 3) correct footfall (4 beat walk, 2 beat trot, 3 beat canter) 4) no stiffness or unequal use of one leg or legs.
A “good or pretty mover” just depends on what pleases your eye. Some love the way Totilas moves. Others don’t. Some like more knee action, others prefer a flatter, softly rounded stride. I do think most people enjoy seeing some suspension and “float”.
I like to see the horse using its whole body, and going along with with a certain effortless spark or joy, like he loves the feeling of moving his body and it is easy for him.
I was charmed by the little chunky monkey fjordster because I like the way he looked after he came around the corner and then the camera zooms in a bit - he looks like he powers along very happily like he’s going places and despite his stout body, his long strides look easy for him. Like his personality is the fuel that is sending him along. Of course I’m filling in a lot of unknown details — he could be grumpy and only moving because someone of camera is energetically sending him forward.
Editing to add: but I would like to hear how others use the phrases “good gaits” vs “good mover”. My interest in is what other people mean when they say this.
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