I found a video with a DHH so what about his trot??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klxon8lDvpc
and one under saddle
totally agree!! very good description!! Also the second horse is ridden by one of the best riders in the world and presented very smart. I would think that makes a difference too. But I also think that the first horse has a lot more potential once she loosens up. Also I might even like her canter better (sorry I did not copy it, but there was a special canter video for the first horse). So it is very very hard to say, one is a better mover because not all factors are the same.
I also like both horses very much!!! Ok this was a comparison of two horses with very similar movementā¦
love your post!!!
so what about those two 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOpHKxWMP7g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtte3l_lUPg
very very different type of movementā¦ So which one might be more suitable for dressage, why are they so different, which one would you prefer to ride??? A lot of questions you can ask when watching those two videos? And of course the personal preferenceā¦
Didnāt look at videos. Your statement āā¦ So which one might be more suitable for dressage,ā defeats your objective. There is NO such thing as āsuitable for trainingā. Dressage is trainingā¦ NOT a poodle show. You must ask your question as āWhich one is more suitable for Dressage Competitionā THEN you can have a discussion. Any horse can ādo dressageā Howeverā¦ just because they can perform the movements adequately demonstrating correct trainingā¦ doesnāt mean they can score āwellā This comparison is apples and chairs.
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Manni01 you should consider auditing an L judging program. The first three sessions are open to silent auditors and cover (among other things) gaits. Itās a wonderful program for ANYONE - and if you can scribe for a candidate you get to listen to all the later session discussions when there is live judging at a show. (I think there will be one in our area next year).
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Iād love to see some comparisons of two or more canters. I personally enjoy canter work more than trot work, and my horse has a great canter (and just an ok trot), so I have a strong canter interest and bias.
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I am not sure what you want to show by these links. Are these supposed to be examples of a good riding or driving horse?
In the first link, it shows perfectly the movement of a horse intended to be put to the shaftsā¦it has the big ground covering movement of a lovely coaching horse. I could not have chosen a better image of a good coach horse.
In the second link, again there is a horse with big movement, where that big movement is being contained by the rider. Instead of allowing the horse to express its gaitsā¦because it has HUGE gaits that are difficult to rideā¦the rider has to restrict the expression.
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Why the snark? If you donāt like the question, you can choose to ignore it.
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I think what constitutes a āpretty moverā is a matter of opinion. Some people like horses with a lot of knee action where the trot is more up and down than forward. Some people like a trot that has a lot of reach but not much suspension. Some people like a floaty trot.
What makes one horse different from another one has a lot to do with the way they are put together, that is the shoulder angles, and other conformational things.
Some people think Totilas is a pretty mover. they may have been looking mostly at his front end. I didnāt really enjoy watching him. One of my favorites was Fuego XII. He did not have big flashy movement, but he was fluid and looked relaxed, like he was really enjoying his job. I found him to be a prettier mover, but that is my opinion because I value the fluid nature of his movements more than the big scope that you see in the front end of horses like Totilas.
There is another horse I know who has ground covering gaits but moves mainly from the shoulder. There is very little knee action. Some people look at that horse and say it has a wonderful trot. I think they are looking mostly at the reach of that gait. Maybe that is what they value most is the reach so thatās why they like that horse. I look at that horse and say I donāt really care about how much reach it has, there is something i find not as appealing about a horse who is moving just from the shoulder back and forth with little suspension. Thatās me and my opionion.
It can also be difficult to decouple the judging aspect, because some people develop tastes or subconscious preferences based on what they realize the judges will reward in the ring.
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So viewed your videos - and you donāt SHOW any video of the 4 year old at liberty. It is lunging, then under saddle. Free moving is NOT on a lunge line - you donāt see horses trot round and round in circles at liberty - they pick open lines as much as possible. So having said that - yes, there is a difference in how they are moving - the horse is looser in its back and body on the lunge line - but that is NOT a free moving horse. The tension seen under saddle appears to be that of a green horse, not comfortable in contact yet, so it is a restricting tension, not an adreneline tension. That is not the same thing.
Post some video of the horse showing off in the pasture, and that will be relevant to my comments. You KNOW the look - big trot, tail flipped up, snorting, showing off.
Now - nowhere did I say ābig gaits are badā - but you said a big moving horse is easy to sit as long as it is using its back - and I disagree. Iām NOT saying it is bad, Iām saying it is not true. A small moving, flat moving horse with no suspension is going to be easier to sit. In fact even in your German riding manual, they comment on that - gaited horses, pacing horses, horses with so suspension are very easy and comfortable to sit. It is not about āgood or badā. Dressage is creates power - power is not easy to ride or sit. Dressage is not easy. Bigger gaits are harder to ride. I donāt know how you take that and make it into āMystic Oak says big gaits are badā.
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And THAT ^^^^ is the problem. In dressage we are now judging āpretty moversāā¦and NOT judging the training of the horse and its capabilities as a functional, obedient, riding horse.
And thus we continue the move towards the ā1000 Pound Poodleā showā¦just like the AKC morphed into a competition of some exaggerated caricature of a dogā¦eg., see GSD.
āin the beginningāā¦eg., when Baron De Coubertin resurrected the Modern Olympics, the Equestrian Competition was was ridden by cavalry officers. These were men (all men until 1952) who competed to demonstrate their mountās obedience and capabilities under difficult circumstances. The āMilitaryā competition (now called Eventing), Dressage and Jumping were chosen to be included, ignoring polo, driving and puissance.
The tests were a test of the horseās FUNCTIONAL CAPABILITY to take a rider around a difficult course (Military) and its obedience (Dressage) and athleticism (Jumping).
Up until abouts 1980ās or so, (concurrent with the āold cavalry guysā dying off) dressage was truly a test of the horseās training as a functional animal. Only until the late 20th century when āgaitsā started to become so prominent, did ādressageā morph into this āpoodle class.ā
The horses in Manniās post are not suitable as riding horses because they would:
(a) not be comfortable to sit upon,
(b) have huge strides that are difficult to collect,
Ā© are too big to be āhandyā if you ever actually wanted to do work off their backs.
Soā¦the āModern Dressageā competition has morphed into some bastardized āmateriale classāā¦where training may (or may not) play into the score awardedā¦
Eg., Ankyās infamous tests where horses did not haltā¦either in the entry or exitā¦and that is what we now call ātrainingāā¦being āAnkyā points were not deducted and excuses were made for the ānot performedā (non) movement.
^^^^Yes, there does seem to be a huge divide as you deascibred.
One of my favorite horses of all time is Ahlerich. He was so fluid and relaxed. If he were to compete in todayās olympics of WEG, he probably wouldnāt score well for the reasons you mentioned.
Is he ridden correctly and demonstrates correct training? YES!!! absolutely, but I donāt think he would score well.
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I agree, AND walks. I can spot a bad walk even in young horses - and am surprised how many can not. Watching DSHB or DS or Materiale classes, I can tell the horse who will go lateral when there is contact. Although the walk is not a huge part of the score, I know plenty of people who wish they could pick up those few extra points from the walk movements!
And I think canter is more likely to cause a horse to struggle at the upper levels then trot! And it is harder to improve a walk and canter.
Totally agree - not just for Manni, but for anyone who wants to understand how dressage is scored. Manni - Iām not sure you truly understand the effect the gait quality has on the scores. The L Program is a huge educational commitment, but personally, I think anyone who competes should audit Part 1 (three weekends) to gain an understanding as to how judging works. I went through the program as a Participant about 12 years ago (or so), audited parts of it not long after that, and ran one a couple of years ago because I wanted a good refresher, and no one in the area was running a program. It is that good. We had about 100 auditors that came from several hours away. And you really need to do all 3 weekends to really start to develop an understanding of the judging process. Yes, gaits are a HUGE component of the score. Like it or not, admit it or not.
You can also scribe and gain some understanding of how judging works - but that is even MORE useful if youāve got the theoretical background from the L Program.
Iām not saying this discussion is useless, but Manni, you made a comment that you were going to āhelp us understandā, and Iām not sure YOU actually understand how judging works. You may have a good grasp of gait quality, but that doesnāt mean you understand the judging process.
And I find there is often a difference between what is rewarded in the auctions, in the inspections, in the āin hand showsā, in the YH classes, versus what actually succeeds at the higher levels. Those big gaits can be quite difficult to collect - especially the walk and canter. A rider can get away with āsemi collectionā at the trot through much of the levels (piaffe and/or passage may be an issue but everything else is OK, as long as the horse is a lofty mover), but at the canter it starts to show up pretty quickly - counter canter, simple changes, series of changes, 1/2 pirouettes, turn on haunches, collected walk - not all those big movers can handle that pressure. So when you look at big gaits, adjustability and ability to SIT become huge issues. And that is where the young horse evaluations (inspections, auctions, on the line, lower levels, etc) donāt always carry through to support the desired end product.
This may be going beyond the scope of your intent for this post, but I think it is all relevant to quality of gaits.
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Very interesting post, and I agree with some things.
I do agree with you that since the 80s the functionality of dressage kind of disappearedā¦ They stopped doing the jump after the dressage test, My first great Dressage instructor hunted with his GP horsesā¦ (and he was German Champion of the Professionals so he was a great rider with amazing horses), and people like R.Klimke and Christopher Bartle who rode int GP plus evented were dying out.
But I disagree about the horses becoming poodlesā¦ Its the way of training which changed not necessarily the horseā¦ And as a result many people do have problems riding their horses by the way, because the training focusses too much on Dressage and not enough on other things.
The poodle thing is your personal opinion and I would like to know whether you base it on personal experience. Do you regularly start and train young horses with modern bloodlines in order to compare them to horses from the 80s??
And now I would be interested which horses of the ones I posted you think are not suitable for dressage?? all of them?? Even the Fjord horse?? Really interested which ones you think unsuitable.
And by the way I.K. is riding Franziskus, this weekend she was very successful in an indoor show in Germany in the GP. This stallion was considered to be very unrideable before he came to Ingrid. Nobody really liked him. Then she started to train him and everything changed. Now he is everybodys darling and wins everything. SO maybe not his breeding but the Training???
We may not be at the 1000 lb poodle yet, but I think it is a valid comment.
I have heard breeders say that theyāve changed what they are breeding for based on demand and what people are looking for in the ring.
I think both training and horses have changed. Look at what has happened in eventing and jumpers with the influx of the WB. Look at how courses have changed over the long term as the WB became more prevalent compared with the TB.
Here are some photos of extreme dish-shaped profiles in arabians:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4975662/Pedigree-horse-described-horrific-experts.html
Some people find this attractive apparently otherwise they wouldnāt be breeding for it, but is it healthy for the horse? Personally that extreme conformation I think is ugly.
Training is ALWAYS part of it, and so is temperament. Iām sure he had good quality gaits or he would NOT be a stallion. But obviously he is a complex ride, and Ingrid has found a way to connect with him. I sincerely hope he does not pass on this temperament.
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I think thatās the challenging part about breeding. I always preferred to use stallions with a performance record. And of course it depends on the rider, but how do we know that he was not just an unlucky guy before he was trained by I.K. Not every rider is a good rider.
I am sure you are right about the dished face, but I really donāt know about Warmbloodsā¦ maybe Dutch warmbloods, That I donāt know but I have been starting young horses since I was 16 (nearly 40 years) and I do not agree that they changedā¦ every horse is a bit different but overall I donāt feel different on a young horse now with modern bloodlines then on the ones 40 years ago.
Franziskus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCJx9hKBxdw&t=256s
This is a neat video. About 5:30 she tries to jump him, and has to work through some refusals. Definitely seems like a mental āwaitā¦weāre what now?ā But he gets it eventually and seems like a game horse who does good when given a job to focus his energy.
Here they are in 2014, to compare the development of the gaits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Z6Nbh9ipg
You can definitely see here the walk is his weakest.
