Very cool videos!! Thanks for posting!!
Very good post. I agree, gaits are somehow a matter of taste. I could post 5 posts of young horses ridden by Ingrid Klimke and they have all different gaitsā¦ but I believe a pleasant way of moving needs to have the whole body involved, otherwise something doesnāt look rightā¦ some horses feel like 2 horses when you ride them. And those horses do not use their body fully correct. I really usually watch the back of a horse, if that looks smooth and working, then I donāt need extreme reachā¦ because reach is not useful without a working back. Sometimes horses start to use their back better when ridden sometimes not. So that is also something to consider when evaluating gaits.
The WB of today is totally different than the WB of 30 yrs ago. There is a whole, whole lot more TB blood today.
The days of WBās like the giants of Granat and Gifted are long gone.
Here are top TBās in WB registires: [INDENT]- Laurieās Crusader (Hano)
- Cottage Son (Holsteiner)
- Pik As (Hano) foundation of all "Pik lineā¦Pik Bubeā¦etc)
- Furioso (Hano)
- Ladykiller (Holst)[/INDENT]
Those are just off the top of my headā¦there are others. A friend imported a stallion prospect (now a licensed Hano stallion) who was 1/2 TB at the 4th generation.
My first horse was a TBā¦back in the Dark Ages, before WBās were in the US.
I broke a Hanoverian, brought to the US in utero, with pink papers. The sire was Dynamo by Don Carlos with Duellant 2x, Goldfisch-II and Senderā¦great old Hanoverian blood lines. That horse grew to 1700b, had a 11" cannon bone and wore a #3 shoe.
He struggled to collect and do work above 3rd level. But he bought me points at shows with his trot. Iām sure I could have stuffed him in a double and competed to higher level, but riding him was too much work.
And after riding the Hano, I have decided I like hot blood. But I donāt like the WB of today. You have the WB mind infused with the TB temperament.
The breeders are breeding for the bling trots and seem to be infusing lots of driving blood for the leg actionā¦eg., the DHH links Manni providedā¦where DHH = Dutch Harness Horse.
These are not RIDING horsesā¦at least not very comfortable ones.
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Once you get past the āregularity and rhythmā, what makes one āgood gaitā over another is a matter of your goals. If you are doing hunters, you want sweeping, long paces and fluidity. If you are doing western (any of the western rail classes), you look for a true jog and true lope (PLEASE LETS NOT GO DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE OF THE TROPE AND TRANTER SEEN IN SOME WP CLASSES. THAT IS NOT MY INTENTION HERE). If you are eventing, you need not only the jumping power and ground covering canters, but also the ability - both in gaits and mind - to collect and be precise for the dressaqe phase. And if you are doing traditional dressage, in the upper levels at the International level, you need uphill balance, a good push from the haunches, cadence, flexibility and suppleness, and the ability to not only lengthen the stride but also show utmost collection for the P/P. At the National levels, especially the lower levels, training is perhaps even more important than exceptional gaits (at least in the AA classes). BUt lets face it, gaits are the basis of EVERY box on that sheet.
However, without good training, extravagent gaits will not win classes.
It would be a rare horse that excelled at all those areas. Remember the old masters did not expect all horses to be excellent in all those areasā¦ some horses specialized in piaffe, others in the quadrille (mostly passage and collected trot), or in one (rarely more) of the airs. We ask our dressage competition horses to do everything!
Remember also that those ānon-haltsā were only ONE score out of the entire test. Do you really want to throw the whole test out due to one below average component?
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the WBs have absolutly changed. One needs to only look at the olympics 20-15 yrs ago. The WBs I rode in the early 90s are very different, not better/worse, but tastes have changed. Also, each registry has different lines, so itās really hard to have a good conversation about āwarmbloodsā since they can vary quite a bit.
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I agree 100% with you and I can see where you are coming from.
And as I grew up in Hannover I know all the lines of your horse first hand 
But if there are people who like that type of horse, a Warmblood with TB infused and blingy gaitsā¦ Why not??? I think people do like different types of horses. And BTW I also think that the days of the big heavy warmbloods are coming backā¦ Because they hardly use any TBs for breeding in Germany any moreā¦ Those days are gone as wellā¦ They are getting bigger and heavier every yearā¦
BTW in Germany they do not use DHH for breedingā¦ I know that for sure. But I said before not sure about Holland. Thats different. And thats exactly why I posted those videos one DHH running free and the other one ridden. If somebody likes it, why not.
Everybody has the freedom to choose the type of horse they like. But you wanted to tell me which horses in my videos are not suited for dressage in your opinion. I am really curious. Did you talk just about specific horses or about every video??
Thank you very much for your post!!
Sorry that I answered this one so late. There were so many posts I just did not get to itā¦ I am curious, why do you want to see the 4 year old in liberty?? Why do you think the liberty trot is important for evaluating a gait?? I know in Salesvideos you see those horses chasing around all the time. What does it tell you??? It shows maximum tension but does it give you clues about the ability to collect or the ability to bend and loosen up?? I am really curious because I personally am never interested in seeing a horse chasing around. It does not tell me anythingā¦ I usually suspect they do it because the horse has no trot under saddleā¦(or is not even ridden yet)
And yes maybe you are right. A horse with no suspension is easier to sit. But once you have ridden a horse with a lot of suspension which is using his back and takes you with it, its like a drug (at least for me). It is kind of amazing to feel that power riding the horse. So maybe its a preference but it is my opinionā¦
And I am sorry if I wrote that you think that big gaits are bad. I did not mean thatā¦
My comments in blueā¦
[B]The first link you posted showing a DHH at liberty shows the BIG trot that everyone goes ga-ga overā¦then the horse breaks into a (cross) canter and the video stops.
A harness horse is intended to cover ground at the trotā¦BIG horizontal trots, not canter. Yet these horses are being sold as riding horses. Horses like thisā¦which is a lovely (coach) horseā¦but not a riding horse.[/B]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoVRDPzxqUs
Somewhereā¦somehowā¦trot became the bling gait. Personally, I prefer the canter.
Thank you!! And I agree with you very much!! I am not sure why everybody is so excited about Dutch horses, but of course I was born in Germany, so I am biassed. And now I get it, you were only talking about the two Harness horses. And I admit I very much agree with you. But did you see some of the other horses in the videos?? the 2 chestnuts??
It seems like most of the horses Manni thinks have āgood gaitsā look virtually unrideable to me for the average dressage rider. The dutch harness horses and crosses that are popular for dressage now are not only notoriously hot and hard to handle, but have difficult to develop canters, upright head carriage and dropped backs, and are nearly impossible for the average rider to sit.
Originally posted by SendenHorse:
Also, each registry has different lines, so itās really hard to have a good conversation about āwarmbloodsā since they can vary quite a bit.
Iām not sure what you mean by this Senden. In my experience, these days the major breeds are pretty much interchangeable, with the big sires being approved for multiple registries. Take for example Belissimo M (Oldenburg). He is approved for Rheinlander, Hanoverian, Oldenburg, Westphalian, Brandenburg, Wurtemburg, Bavarian, Zweibrucken, Hessen, all southern German. Approved with Erkend Studbook for KWPN. (http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/belissimo.shtml)
Or Totilas (Dutch), approved for:
Dutch Warmblood, Oldenburg, Hanoverian, Mecklenburg, Westphalian, Rhinelander, Selle Francais and southern Germany studbooks. Interestingly, Totilas could actually be considered a Trakehner. (http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallion.php?Totilas-87)
Or Sir Sansibar (Trakehner), approved for:
Oldenburg, Trakehner, Rhinelander, Westphalian, all Southern German breeding associations
Or Hotline (Hanoverian), approved for:
Hanoverian, Oldenburg, Rheinlander, Westphalian, all southern associations
My point is that these days, itās almost impossible to distinguish one ābreedā from another as they all seem to be breeding for similar traits.
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Do you mean the two chestnuts in the Ingrid symposium? They were both hot and sensitive. Most of us AAās donāt want a horse like that.
not sure what you are talking aboutā¦ I posted horses with different gaits. and you think the average dressage rider canāt ride them???
So this is not a horse for an average dressage rider?? ( I confess I simply adore this guy. I would take him any dayā¦)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6xNGIjWzz0
The DHH horses I just posted for Pluvinel because he thinks that is the new dressage type. But I agree with him that they are not easy to sit and rideā¦
Ahhhā¦but au contraireā¦once you ride a sensitive, hot horse, you wonāt go back.
This is from an AA who regularly got bucked off a 4 yr old stallion until he taught meā¦and I learnedā¦how he wanted to be riddenā¦and once youāve had a taste of this, you wonāt go back.
No I meant the young one which Ingrid was riding in the symposium and the video with the 4 year old before who was trotting outside.
I think the other chestnut in the Ingrid Video was there only for the young one. And I think about any young horse would be hot and sensitive in such a surroundingā¦ Donāt you think so??
Now I would do it with my 4 year old but I think Ingrids horse was greener then mine is nowā¦
Ok, I try some more videosā¦
what about the gaits of this horseā¦ This is not a young horse and the rider is 60. So how are those gaitsā¦
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ANbObKpvfkA
Ok so far I tried to show videos from Germany just because I thought nobody knows them and so we can talk about them. But it is really hard to find short trot videosā¦ So now a video from the US. I really really hope its ok. otherwise I can delete itā¦
I think its a nice horse and its a warmblood as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na0ZcWLZ7hE
No. The average dressage rider would fight that horseās natural conformation (his neck is shorter than his head!) and drafty nature for years without getting anywhere. Fjords have their purpose, and there are fjords that do dressage well, but you do dressage on a fjord because you like fjords first.
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I admittedly just skimmed this thread and while I did see at least one reference to the L program, I did not see a reference to the USEF rulebook which is the source of much of the L program material. Itās available online for free and goes through all the gaits.
If you really are interested in how judges arrive at scores, then I agree about the value of the L program. Iām starting Part 2 in the spring and am reviewing my part 1 materials and the recommended reading list. While the FEI judging guide is expensive, it is a pretty comprehensive outline of what judges look for in gaits as well in each of the movements.
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He looks very sweet and maybe itās the riderās hands, but this horse looks irregular in the front to me.
