How do you classify good and bad gaits

[MysticOakRanch]

@BatataHead

I don’t agree that Rhythm is identifcal to correct footfall for a gait.

I do understand that tempo is speed and that’s not what I’m talking about.

A canter can devolve into 4 beats but have perfect “rhythm”. A canter can have 3 beats but imperfect rhythm.

For instance - two walks:

1, 2, THREE, 4 (more emphasis on 3)

1,2,3,4 (equal emphasis on each footfall)

The first walk has four beats but an improper emphasis on one particular beat. It’s got the wrong rhythm, the right footfall, and the horse could be stiff, or moving improperly or lame.

The second walk has four beats evenly emphasized/timed the same. Correct rhythm, correct footfall.

From USDF’s Glossary of judging terms:

RHYTHM The recurring characteristic sequence and timing of footfalls and phases of a gait. For purposes of dressage, the only correct rhythms are those of the pure walk, trot, canter, rein back and piaffe. See also the definition in the Freestyle section.

Note 1: “Rhythm” is sometimes used mistakenly to mean “tempo” (rate of repetition of the rhythm). This usage is not consistent with the correct English definition of “rhythm” (per Webster), nor with its normal usage in music.

Note 2: In English, there is no one term that covers both the rhythm (as defined above) and the tempo, as does the term “Takt” in German. This has caused confusion because “Takt” has commonly been translated as Rhythm. For purposes of the Pyramid of Training, the German term “Takt” is translated as “Rhythm” and is used as shorthand for both the rhythm itself (as defined above) and the suitable rate of repetition of the rhythm (tempo). "

So a 4 beat canter does not have correct rhythm, nor does a lateral walk. And a trot with NO moment of suspension is not correct either.

[MysticOakRanch]

@BatataHead

I agree that a judge can’t accurately judge an individual horse’s full ability, which is why I like the idea of limiting the gait score to a correct/not-correct standard which could be applied to all horses.

It would not matter if the horse had big or small gaits with this simple standard – the judge would not have to know that horse’s potential. Simply that the gaits were regular/rhythmic, had the correct footfall, and the horse demonstrated a freeness/lack of stiffness. The lack of stiffness observation would be the most difficult across horses, but I think there might be ways to objectively measure it. Mabye by looking for equal use/unfolding and opening of joints on the sets of legs etc. If you’ve got a left hock that bends and a right hock that stays pretty straight, for instance you’re going to see some stiffness.

I believe this was how the older judging methodology worked - the horse’s regularity was looked at for each movement - if a gait became irregular, it lowered the individual movement score. Otherwise, the big gaits only got “bonus points” in the individual collective mark (which was a coefficient of 3). And of course, big gaits got extra points in certain movements such as the Extended Trot (we use to call them the “brilliance movements”). But that goes back several decades…

[cnm161]

@BatataHead

I don’t agree that Rhythm is identifcal to correct footfall for a gait.

I do understand that tempo is speed and that’s not what I’m talking about.

A canter can devolve into 4 beats but have perfect “rhythm”. A canter can have 3 beats but imperfect rhythm.

For instance - two walks:

1, 2, THREE, 4 (more emphasis on 3)

1,2,3,4 (equal emphasis on each footfall)

The first walk has four beats but an improper emphasis on one particular beat. It’s got the wrong rhythm, the right footfall, and the horse could be stiff, or moving improperly or lame.

The second walk has four beats evenly emphasized/timed the same. Correct rhythm, correct footfall.

You’re talking about the difference between rhythm (timing of the footfalls) and regularity (evenness of the footfalls within the rhythm of the gait). “Good gaits” must have both, as well as the impression of freedom/swing.

[Manni01]

@MysticOakRanch

And a few pages back:

Manni, I do NOT need a horse at liberty to evaluate gaits, I had said (several pages ago), that the trot looks fancier (not better, FANCIER) when a horse is at liberty with tension. And you disagreed with me, and wanted me to look at your 2 videos of your 4 year old - neither of which was at liberty. So my response was simply - it isn’t relevant to my comments, neither one is at liberty. You did show some other horses at liberty (like the Fjord), but not under saddle. And I’m trying to point out, that horse under saddle may look very different AT THE TROT.

Now. several pages later, you say exactly the same thing I say - that the “liberty trot” with tension is shown in sales videos. My POINT is exactly that - and in some of your earlier videos, including the Fjord, we see trot at liberty - you can NOT compare the two. You are really just re-enforcing my point, but you are arguing with me.

Here is my quote - that you seem to have reworded for me… I’ve underlined a few points that you have ignored.

I am not saying big gaits are bad either - but you said they are easier to ride, and I am pointing out (as a few others also pointed out) that is NOT true. Horses that are for long days of riding, pleasure horses are NOT big movers. It feels like you argue just to argue when you realize you might not be correct - so you just take a totally different tact. I never said it was my preference for riding dressage - in fact, I said dressage is about building power. It is very difficult to carry on any meaningful discussion when you constantly change a person’s content and context and try to make it sound like none of the rest of us know anything or are capable of riding anything.

.

You were the one who started with horses chased around and looking Fancy. And I did not disagree with you. I did agree with you as you hopefully remember… I can even cite the post…

I never chase my horses around because I think its not telling me anything. It might look fancy, but it has nothing to do with riding a horse. I only look at gaits if the horse is relaxed doing them. But I do compare horses without rider trotting relaxed and horses with rider because that can tell you something. And I posted the Fjord horse, because he was trotting pretty relaxed. He would probably trot the same on the lunge. So I think that one you can use for looking at gaits.

And apologize that I posted my own videos, but I really did not want to offend anybody else by posting videos somebody might know… Because of that I also used a lot of Videos from Germany because I figured it doesn’t bother anybody…

And the only reason why I posted that Fjord horse free running was that I couldn’t find any videos of him under saddle. And I also think that he was pretty relaxed while running so his gaits were probably close to the gaits on the lunge. Maybe thats wrong, but that was what I am thinking… But of course you turned it against me… Thank you!!

…

[Manni01]

@MysticOakRanch

Rhythm IS correct beat/footfall. Rhythm and tempo are too entirely different things - tempo is speed (footfalls per minute if you prefer), but I think you are referring to rhythm as tempo. Rhythm is the beat of the stride - a walk has a 4 beat rhythm, a trot is a 2 beat rhythm, if the gait is correct. If the walk is one-two, one-two; or the canter is one-two-three-four, the rhythm is not correct.

Judges do NOT assess an individual horse’s ability - because they don’t KNOW that ability. Who can tell if that little pony has huge gaits or not? Who can tell if that Warmblood is a big mover or a choppy mover? How does the judge know it isn’t good or bad riding that has changed the gaits? Judges can only judge what is in front of them at that moment.

your second paragraph is really confusing me… I really agree with you on that and thats exactly why I want the scores for gaits be preserved in the tests… (sorry I know its OT)

[alibi_18]

@BatataHead

I don’t agree that Rhythm is identifcal to correct footfall for a gait.

You don’t have to agree but rhythm is the correct footfall for a gait according to the FEI.

Walk : 4 beat rhythm
Trot : 2 beat rhythm
Canter : 3 beat rhythm

A canter can devolve into 4 beats but have perfect “rhythm”. A canter can have 3 beats but imperfect rhythm.

No.
A 4beat canter does not have perfect rhythm since the rhythm of the canter dictate 3beats. It’s unbalanced canter.

A 3beat canter is the correct rhythm.

May I suggest you read the definition of each terms :

Cadence, Rhythm, Tempo

https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Competition/2015_USDF_Glossary_.pdf

For instance - two walks:

1, 2, THREE, 4 (more emphasis on 3)

1,2,3,4 (equal emphasis on each footfall)

The first walk has four beats but an improper emphasis on one particular beat. It’s got the wrong rhythm, the right footfall, and the horse could be stiff, or moving improperly or lame.

The second walk has four beats evenly emphasized/timed the same. Correct rhythm, correct footfall.

The first walk you describe is a horse that is short/lame behind. So irregular in the rhythm.

Obviously, the horse has no choice to have 4 footfalls at the walk unless it’s so lame and can’t put one leg down…

[BatataHead]

@MysticOakRanch

I believe this was how the older judging methodology worked - the horse’s regularity was looked at for each movement - if a gait became irregular, it lowered the individual movement score. Otherwise, the big gaits only got “bonus points” in the individual collective mark (which was a coefficient of 3).

I’m not that familiar with scoring in the higher levels past or present - do we still have coefficients in tests of 3? Or is that of the older school/times that you’re referring to? At my level I only see 2s.

[BatataHead]

@cnm161

You’re talking about the difference between rhythm (timing of the footfalls) and regularity (evenness of the footfalls within the rhythm of the gait). “Good gaits” must have both, as well as the impression of freedom/swing.

Makes sense. I think I’m trying mentally to make horse movement terms fit into a musical paradigm and thinking

Music: Meter (4/4, 3/4, 2/4) vs Rhythm
Instead of
Horse/USDF: Rhythm vs Regularity

Anyway didn’t meant to side track this thread, which I’m enjoying

[atlatl]

@BatataHead

Makes sense. I think I’m trying mentally to make horse movement terms fit into a musical paradigm and thinking

Music: Meter (4/4, 3/4, 2/4) vs Rhythm
Instead of
Horse/USDF: Rhythm vs Regularity

Anyway didn’t meant to side track this thread, which I’m enjoying

If you want a music analogy, I’ll go out on a limb and offer this.

A pure four beat walk is the same as a 4/4 measure of 4 quarter notes. There are 4 footfalls in the walk; 4 notes in the measure, each of equal duration.

While another 4/4 measure of 2 dotted quarter notes and 2 eighth notes also has 4 total notes in the measure, it sounds very different.

This is for you, Mr. Phelps, band director at Bear River Jr High, Wheatland, CA circa 1973

[MysticOakRanch]

@BatataHead

I’m not that familiar with scoring in the higher levels past or present - do we still have coefficients in tests of 3? Or is that of the older school/times that you’re referring to? At my level I only see 2s.

The coefficient of 3 is in the “old days”. We currently have a coefficient of 1 on the USEF tests for the gaits score. BUT - now the gait quality (not just rhythm and regularity) are considered in every single test movement. There are plenty of threads on that topic, and I suspect that is why Manni started THIS thread.

[pluvinel]

@atlatl

If you want a music analogy, I’ll go out on a limb and offer this.

A pure four beat walk is the same as a 4/4 measure of 4 quarter notes. There are 4 footfalls in the walk; 4 notes in the measure, each of equal duration.

…

For the musically inclined, I will offer that 4/4 time is March time which can be used for the walk or the trot…or 2/4 time

And canter is 2/3 or Waltz time.

​​​​​And tempo ​​is like andante, adagio, etc…

[SendenHorse]

Right, I like to call this each footfall having the same deliberateness.

Also, good gaits- is this the same as good connection? Hmmmmmmm

Lots of talk about what makes a good gait, but not about how to feel it as a rider, and how to change “bad gaits” to better gaits.

Good gaits is way more than airtime. I think it’s missing 95% of the substance as far as education.

Good gaits are a function of the anatomy, but it’s also a function of mental and physical looseness.

I can tell if a horse will be a good mover by feeling the muscles along the topline, and how they react to pressure.

This is all so much more about how the back responds to the rider, and how the horse is straight/free from tension. I have seen and ridden many “good movers” that when conditions change loose regularity. However, I have also seen and been able to correct those imabalances Some problems are innate and some can be changed. A horse prone to a 4 beat canter will be harder to work with than a horse with an excellent 3 beat articulated canter with each hind leg working independely. Since rhythm is essential to everything, that is why it’s sooooo important to work from this foundation.

Tempo is also important to a good mover, if you rush a horse or ride with the brake on, they will loose lift and tone.The sternum will drop, forget it.

[BatataHead]

@atlatl

If you want a music analogy, I’ll go out on a limb and offer this.

A pure four beat walk is the same as a 4/4 measure of 4 quarter notes. There are 4 footfalls in the walk; 4 notes in the measure, each of equal duration.

Yep, this is how I think of it, “noting” (haha) of course that it is just an analogy and not a perfect one -

walk 4/4 (4 beats per measure)
trot 2/4 (2 beats per measure)
canter 3/4 (3 beats per measure)

To actually match the exact meter with the likely tempo of the gait would start to get tedious for a non-music thread

[BatataHead]

@pluvinel

And canter is 2/3 or Waltz time.

I think you mean 3/4

[pluvinel]

@BatataHead

I think you mean 3/4

Yup…you’re right…somehow I was thinking polka, minuet…and got my 2’s, 3’s and 4’s crossways. It has been many years since piano lessons.

[lorilu]

Canter has four beats. One is the suspension phase. It is NOT waltz time. If you are talking about FOOTFALLS, yes. But not rhythm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bomnD2JbYuk

[BatataHead]

@lorilu

Canter has four beats. One is the suspension phase. It is NOT waltz time. If you are talking about FOOTFALLS, yes. But not rhythm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bomnD2JbYuk

She is being interesting and trying to make a point about how canter can be ridden to 4/4, 6/8, 3/4, 2/4 and break people out of the box of thinking it can only be ridden to waltz music. It is about alignment of downbeats.

If canter is truly 4 time, why does she Later count it as 6 and counts aloud “ONE two three FOUR five six”. (two sets of 3). Listen to the whole thing and she says you can count it as 4 OR 6. 4/4 or 6/8. So she starts by saying it is 4. Then around 1.20 she counts it as 6 and calls it 6/8.

She literally says “So it is a 6/8! OR, if you want to look at it as 4…” So is it 4 or 6? Or 2 or 3? You can ride a canter to 4/4 music.

However, 4 time is usually counted ONE two three four, ONE two three four.
She matches up the canter to 4/4 by counting it ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR.

3/4 is ONE two three, ONE two three.

6/8 is ONE two three, FOUR five six.

etc.

Which is awesome as it frees up more music to be used in freestyle. You don’t have to stick to waltzes for canter.

[BigMama1]

@BatataHead

I don’t agree that Rhythm is identifcal to correct footfall for a gait.

I do understand that tempo is speed and that’s not what I’m talking about.

A canter can devolve into 4 beats but have perfect “rhythm”. A canter can have 3 beats but imperfect rhythm.

For instance - two walks:

1, 2, THREE, 4 (more emphasis on 3)

1,2,3,4 (equal emphasis on each footfall)

The first walk has four beats but an improper emphasis on one particular beat. It’s got the wrong rhythm, the right footfall, and the horse could be stiff, or moving improperly or lame.

The second walk has four beats evenly emphasized/timed the same. Correct rhythm, correct footfall.

I just wrote an article on this very subject - the difference between rhythm and tempo (interviews a local GP trainer plus the head trainer of the Dutch team).

Yes rhythm is the correct sequence of footfalls, so you cannot have a correct rhythm in a 4 beat canter. The correct rhythm is three beats.

What you’re describing with emphasis on one particular beat in the walk or trot is unevenness, or likely lameness

[BigMama1]

I’ll throw my 2 cents in on the harness breeds. We are starting to see a lot of Friesans, Dutch Harness Horses, and draft x Hackneys in the ring around here. I can see why people are impressed by the movement because it can be eye catching, but to me it often lacks reach and comes with tight backs and necks. Maybe it’s because I personally don’t care for high knee action - I think it looks choppy and rough - but I think these breeds are better added in small doses or better when they are a bit further back in the pedigree. Look at Verdades with his strong Hackney line. He is not the prettiest mover in my view, but so correct, rhythmic and so well-ridden it makes up for it. So “good” gaits don’t nexessarily mean “pretty” gaits, to answer the OPs question.

And of course what’s considered a “good” gait will vary greatly depending on the desired purpose of the horse. An international quality GP dressage horse will have a very different trot than one an AA hopes to reach Third Level with. Saddlebred people may view “good” gaits very differently from those who breed QHs for western pleasure. And a “good” trot for a hackney in harness may not at all be what one is looking for in an endurance horse.

All this aside, the trot is really the least telling of all the gaits anyway, isn’t it? If we really want to judge gait quality, don’t we learn a lot more from the walk or the canter?

[pluvinel]

Here are some short clips of riders +50 yrs ago to compare with the horses being used today. The gaits seem fine to me, but the horses are very different.

Henry Chammertin & Woermann Gold at the 1964 Olympics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWHdnCXKAQc

Filatov on Absent - Akhal Teke stallion (Individual Gold at the 1960 Rome Olympics)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0_AS_YBFks

Josef Neckermann - Asbach - Rome 1960
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5IKb5Cu2ok

Colonel Lesage and Taine Individual Gold at the 1932 Olympics (very grainy, interesting, they post extended trot)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-FJRyei400

Interesting collection of Olympics Military Riding from 1930’s - 1940’s (???) Interesting to look at the horses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXKtGAbQGlM