Thank you so much! I love your links!! And the 4th horse on the Olympic Military Riding Monaco from Sweden, He is a dream!!! I would love a TB like that!!!
And my opinion about the gaits at those times. There were horses with amazing gaits as well Henry Chammertins horses had very very nice gaits. and BTW this TB Monaco is gorgeous… there were just not that many horses with great gaits because I guess at those times nobody really bred for gaits…Most horses were bred for racing or the Army.
Thank you for everybody contributing!! There are a lot of great posts!!
@MysticOakRanch you are right, that is the reason why I started the thread. Whats wrong about a discussion about it??
and the reason why I mainly talk about the trot is very easy… I do believe all three gaits are important. Especially the canter. But many times the selling point is the trot… Very sorry to say that, look at auctions, the expensive horses are the ones who trot…(at least the dressage prospects…) You don’t sell a horse which only walks and canters…
And BTW thats also why I really tried to show only young horses without a lot of training, because the trot is the gait which can be developed most by a rider. Walk you need to be careful not to destroy, If we look at trained horses, we don’t know what is natural and what is trained.
Remember…that the horses bred for the cavalry were “purpose bred” to do a military job…like a heavy horse to pull the caissons…or at the other extreme, the officer’s riding horse…which was a much lighter animal.
But the WB registries…those keeper of the bloodlines for military use…had to find a new purpsoe for their breed once the horse cavalry became obsolete.
And thus was born the new WB markeing machine to “repurpose” those animals as riding horses.
And yes, I freely admit am a fan of the lighter breeds…afther having had the 17-3hh/1700 lb Hanoverian, I have rediscovered the “hot bloods”. Not going back to “warm bloods.”
Yes you are right and in Germany at that time horses were still used as workhorses on Farms. So many of those horses were also used when the Warmblood changed into the modern Sporthorse. But I am not sure why this is bad?? Without using the horse for sport, there would be no more horses. I think it started to become bad when the big money thing took over. Nowadays its not about the horse anymore but about money… Thats what I don’t like.
And I also agree with you that lighter horses are nice 
My 4 year old was bred using ideas from the 70s and 80s when H.J. Köhler was still in charge of the auctions in Verden. He used a lot of TBs and encouraged breeders to use them (which doesn’t unfortunately happen nowadays anymore) My horse has all the dressage lines (Weltmeyer,Woerman, Florencio but also a lot of TB) yesterday somebody told me she is a Polohorse type, but on the weekend the BNT told me she is a super young horse with 3 very good gaits… She is fun to ride. Thats how a horse should be IMO… Sorry for the OT
Warmbloods were harness horses too. Friesians are actually the original European riding horse if you want to go back a few centuries - Deb Bennet has written articles on that topic. Like MOST horse breeds, the breeding changed to follow the needs of the people - so they became fancy harness horses because that was the demand for many generations. Now, they are being bred again for riding. Dutch HHs are also following this trend, since the demand for driving horses is not so great. Warmbloods were harness horses too.
Tight backs and necks - have you NOT watched some of the Warmbloods in the ring these days? Tight backs and necks are most definitely not limited to high stepping breeds! I think the Iberian horses probably have the tightest backs and necks (and WAY harder to train them to swing then any other type of horse I’ve ever ridden), yet they show up at the upper levels too. I haven’t yet seen Hackneys at the FEI levels, but I’ve most definitely seen DHH and Gelderlanders at the FEI levels. And Thoroughbreds, which are NOT high stepping, tend to carry a lot of tension in the back. And don’t you ride a draft cross? They tend to have super tight backs. So why limit that description to a few breeds.
I’ve had a few Friesians and Friesian crosses - and they can be trained to go loose and swinging in the back, just like any other breed. BTW - the Dressage Nationals champions (Open and AA) for the Grand Prix Freestyle were a Friesian cross and a Friesian. Kind of reinforces that these are valid dressage horses when they are winning national titles at the FEI levels.
And knee action - you see it in some of the Warmbloods as well - especially those of Dutch breeding. So you may not LIKE that kind of movement, but it is definitely appropriate for dressage. Might not win in the hunter ring, but I don’t like that more stiff legged daisy cutter look myself… There is personal preference, of course, so you wouldn’t buy a horse with more knee and hock articulation (and I wouldn’t buy a daisy cutter), but for dressage functionality, that should not be a limiting factor.
So…rather than going by “personal preferences” regarding gaits…let’s go to the FEI Rule Book to see (a) what is the Purpose of Dressage, (b) What are the qualities that should be present and © What the rules say about the gaits/paces.
Only then can we discuss “gaits” in the context of competitive dressage.
CHAPTER I DRESSAGE
ARTICLE 401 OBJECT AND GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF DRESSAGE [LIST=1]
So with this being the foundation of the rules…we can ask what gaits would be best to comply with these directives?
I would offer that: INDENT The lighter breeds have an easier time of “lightness of the forehand and the engagement of the hindquarters”…just by virtue of their size. You don’t see a male gymnast or ballerina looking like a 350 lb football player. Therefore the conformation and gaits that would allow best compliance with the directives are the best gaits.
(b) Conversely, the breeds with a lot of “harness” breeding, though they may have “flashy trots,” are heavier animals, bred to push into harness, making their conformation much more ill-suited to “lightness of the forehand.”
© So when those animals are marketed as riding animals, then that leads to the “stress” that is seen in some horses in upper level competitions when those conformations are being subjected to movements that were not the historical breeding goals. Thus you see cranked nosebands, hitchy, irregular trots, and butt-bouncing piaffes.[/INDENT]
I guess I would disagree. Tbreds are one of the lightest breeds (along with Arabians), and are not built for lightness of the forehand. The Tbred is built for speed - length of gait, NOT elevation. Arabians are also not built to engage, they are bred for covering a lot of ground for long periods of time. Tbreds are not known for long term soundness either, although Arabians are.
Baroque horses (Friesians, Andalusians, Lippizans, Lusitanos) are not light breeds, but are built for front end elevation - that is part of the characteristics of the Baroque style of horse. And some (especially Friesians and Lippizans) have greater bone which contributes to generally staying sound longer.
Warmbloods are purpose bred for sport, and many of the Baroque breeds are too. And other breeds have many individuals that are quite suited for dressage (often purpose bred, even if the entire breed is not purpose bred for dressage, many breeding programs are aimed at the sport).
I would come back and say, I think maybe some of the breeding has gone too far - that it becomes harder and harder to maintain soundess, both mental and physical because of extreme breeding practices. But I disagree that the lightest breeds are most suitable to dressage, and I’d say the competition results reinforce that. I don’t see the rules supporting your conclusion, to be honest. I know you feel the judges are ignoring the rules, so this becomes a circular argument.
I agreed with your post until I got to the bold…
What do you mean TBs are not known for long term soundness? Don’t make the mistake of comparing an off track TB’s future soundness with a horse that has never raced a day in its life. TBs have to work incredibly hard incredibly early and that affects their future soundness… if you take away the race training/career, I think you’d be very surprised how hardy and sound TBs can be. If you put a WB or a Friesian into the same race training as a TB I guarantee you the breakdown% would be much more dramatic.
N=1 but in my experience the TBs have been just as sound if not sounder than the other horses in my life, WBs included… And I am including the warhorse TBs (70+ starts) I’ve owned and/or ridden. Both the OTTBs and the sportbred TBs. Tit for tat when you compare the unraced TBs with other unraced breeds the soundness is largely the same, though I will say WBs seem to come part and parcel with cervical/spinal/neurological issues. There are certain things within breeds that can be unique to that breed, but I don’t think that TBs are inherently more unsound than other breeds, including Friesians and WBs.
As far as having greater bone contribute to better soundness, I guess I disagree with that too. Bigger horses with bigger bone tend to have their own subset of issues, hoof issues, ringbone, sidebone, hock and stifle issues, etc, because their bodies are too big and too heavy. I don’t know many Friesians that can handle a (light) jumping career, personally, nor many other heavier breeds, their bodies are not made for the concussion and they tend to get hoof and lower limb injuries as a result.
I agree and disagree…
Just by simple physics, the lighter the animal, the easier it is for the horse to elevate its front end. Lips, Andys, Lusos, are typically under 16hh.
And the Lusitano breed, specifically was bred as a working cattle horse…so again, here we go for “functionality/performance” vs “show dog.” The Working Equitation “WE” discipline was started by Portugal, Spain, Italy & France that have native breeds that are “using horses” and the WE founders wanted to highlight the performance aspects of their breeds.
And yes, TB’s are bred for running may not be the best conformation to “sit”…eg., an animal shaped like this.
But, within the TB breed there are some very good examples of “baroque looking” TB’s. I was at Suffolk Downs for a race meet and saw a gorgeous horse…he came in dead last. If I had the foresight I would have claimed him, but I wasn’t there to buy a horse.
Perhaps, but even with all the “Masters” riding (and we know they didn’t themselves consider they were finished learning), they were not posting 8, 9, 10 scores in any of the movements because IMHO, there was recognition even back then that the horses shear athletic ability was not (in the directives for each movement) in the 8, 9 and 10 range. We have had 50-60 years of breeding to make the “Dressage” horse a more athletic creature for showing both collection AND extension. Say what one wants, a fluid, loose horse able to take to the training and do the movements as if it were a walk in the park is going to score well BECAUSE it takes to the training and moves like it is no big deal.
This is what happens when you take a DHH and try to make it into a “dressage prospect.”
Although no doubt it has a quite extravagant trot, you guys tell me if this horse is
(1) a “light ride”…eg.,a horse that “shows lightness of the forehand, acceptance of the bit”…yada…yada…yada.
(2) is a a horse that would be a pleasant ride.
I do not consider this an “improvement” on the older style light riding horse.
My Dutch Harness Horse showed successfully through GP with me as the adult amateur/trainer. Some of those horses are super athletes that can really sit and carry as well as push and extend; he was one of them. And yeah, we got destroyed if his hocks were out behind him (3s and 4s). Ultimately though he had great pirouettes, passage, lateral work, and flying changes. I wish I could have 5 more just like him.
I get that you like a certain type but you don’t have to trash other people’s preferences.
I am not “trashing” anyone’s horse.
This thread is a discussion of gaits. I am simply showing examples of horses that are “en vogue” that are not suitable…in general…as riding horses.
Obviously you found a good egg DHH that could take to dressage. Perhaps it did not like to be a carriage horse.
Same as the TB I saw at Suffolk Downs…it raced dead last…so it was NOT a good example of the TB breed but would have made a lovely dressage horse.
Not every horse is meant to be a riding horse…or a dressage horse.
That’s why I said I personally don’t like a lot of knee action - definitely anpersonal preference. I didn’t mean to imply that DHH, Hackney and Friesians were the only breeds with tight backs - far from it. They just seem to be the most popular harness crosses in the ring here right now. My guy’s Belgian draft breeding is definitely one of his more limiting factors when it comes to conformation and movement.
I think all these breeds have something when added to other breeds - Verdades is the perfect example. And definitely, as there is less need for harness horses and more demand for specific characteristics in th dressage horse I suspect we will see these breeds used more and more and refined to meet the needs of riders, rather than drivers.,
Good, save the DHHs for us. They’re one of the dressage-smurf’s best kept secrets… alongside their saddlebred cousins… :yes:
That video you posted, to me, just shows a horse that lacks basic/fundamental dressage training because it was primarily a harness horse and has a different subset of training that needs to be “overwritten”. I don’t see anything about this horse that could not be fixed by quality, progressive training.
And I think the majority of the issue you see in that horse that you linked is more in the training than in the horse itself. They don’t come out of the womb in side reins.
I would not consider this particular horse as a riding horse for me personally, as it typifies what I said above I personally dislike about some DHHs. But as someone said above, breeders are adapting to the demands of the riding horse market so you can’t write off an entire breed.
This is an example of a DHH who was recently for sale in our area as a dressage prospect and I think she’s quite lovely, entirely suitable as a dressage horse. She doesn’t have the choppy high knees which I personally don’t like, but maintained the characteristic DHH athleticism and articulation in the hocks, which should be beneficial in dressage. And more important than th trot, she has a good walk and a lovely canter.
I guess the lesson is you can’t write off an entire breed as there are so many differences within it.
I love riding DHH and ASB’s. That canter once slowed down a bit and more control is dreamy to sit. Very nice horse in the video. I wouldn’t be upset if he showed up with a big red bow.
And just FYI…Ostermaier was a…gasp…Circus rider. He worked for Barnum & Bailey…same as Arthur (Pops) Konyot (Tina Konyot’s grandfather).
Somewhere in some dark closet I have a VHS cassette of Ostermaier showing how to school Piaffe & Passage.
Also, here is a recent GREAT example of variations in gaits…all successful!
Jim Koford just won the GP Freestyle on Adiah, a Friesian cross, that…could pull a cart in style any day of the week. Lol!
https://www.facebook.com/USADressage…4849788906252/
(also note, this mare has less than ideal conformation …long, pigeon toed…but it works together for her and the training…so also a lesson in there)
Compare to beautiful young horse with Klimke in one of Manni’s earlier posts.
https://youtu.be/iOpHKxWMP7g
Both beautiful horses. Both improving with good training. VERY different, but correct!, gaits.
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