This might be the dumbest question I’ve asked, but with English riding, there is rein contact as you are asking them to use the hind end and tuck their abs. With western riding one doesn’t have a lot of rein contact – so is it the bit?
But the thing is, with Western, you will TRAIN the horse to learn collection with help from the reins and rein contact. Just like an English horse will learn “self carriage”, so will the Western horse – just in a bit different way. You teach the horse to carry themselves. Even though the reins might be loose, they can still feel you “pick up” on the reins, even if you aren’t picking up all the slack.
Same general principle as English, but just a different way of getting there through cues, I guess you could say.
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Beau159, can you do that with a snaffle or do you need a shanked bit?
My new horse is 11 year old former ranch horse, but for the last year was owned by someone who used a Tom Balding high port shanked bit. I can see where picking up the reins with that bit would encourage him to round (dunno if it would get his to use his hinney), but not sure how I can get the same effect with a double-jointed snaffle. I can do it “english style” but I am pushing him into the bit, I don’t have a loose rein…
This is am interesting question. I’ve ridden professionally trained cutting and reining horses, though my true roots are jumping and dressage.
I don’t think the same amount of collection is common for a western horse… though I might attribute it to the saddle rather than the reins.
I had a nice cutting horse who was super sensitive. With my dressage saddle I could carry myself, my weight, control her tempo and have her lift her back without touching the reins. The same effort seemed to get lost in translation of my western saddle.
I hated the reining world because they’d say a horse was collected, but really they were so heavy on the forehand. There’s a difference between rounding their frame to avoid punishment and truly sitting back on their hind end…
just my two cents…I’m curious what others have to say.
I wonder, how much reining have you done and at what level did you show and how did you score?
Reining trainers here will take on a finished cutter to retrain and they find them completely green, have to start from the start to teach them to carry themselves, they are so very heavy on the front end.
In fact, any more plenty of cutting trainers send their cutters for some basics to a reiner trainer for a bit of that more exacting start on getting a correct handle on their cutters.
Now, those horses are wonderful in front of a cow, definitely, but their dry work tends to be practically non-existent.
Even many working cowhorses are not up to reining standards in their dry work, which they don’t need to be, competing against others with the same level of training.
We may make a parallel with an eventing horse dressage class, not really expected to be that many as well trained as a dressage horse working towards the highest levels.
Not that they may not be that good, just that many are not, is not their focus.
The complaint from reining trainers about cutters to retrain tends to be, how can they ride this horse, no more control they have, barely can circle and no real lead changes, just some kind of rushing around heavy on the front end type horses, compared with a finished reiner, that has installed body and speed control just from your lightest aids.
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I think making a blanket statement about the reining world is being too general. Some horses do naturally work with a low headset while maintaining impulsion and coming through from behind, but that’s not true of every horse. Al Dunning or Bob Avila, I forget now, had an article in a magazine that touched on that. The gist of the article was that this was a trend, and though visually appealing, not necessarily mandatory to win first place. Someone wins a big reining title on a horse who carries its head low and suddenly everyone is aspiring to that. That’s not untrue for any other discipline, though. It’s how particular riding styles or tack or breeds or whatever become a trend. Sometimes those trends stick around, sometimes they don’t. Horses going around on their forehand, too, isn’t exclusive to reining.
Contact and self-carriage is taught in essentially every style of riding. However, like beau159 said, the route you take is different. Sometimes the end goal, too, is a little different. In the discipline I do, a lot of horses are started in the snaffle bit. A lot of the foundation work is put on a horse in a snaffle and it’s the bit that people often return to go back to basics, so to speak, with older horses. I work on body control and suppling every day, working on collection is a part of that. My goal is to have my horse guiding between my hands with float in the reins, driving from behind with her shoulders elevated and free. My horse, bless her soul, airs on the lazier end of the scale so it’s quite a bit of wash, rinse, repeat. I’ll ride her into the bridle between my legs and hands, and once she comes through herself, I’ll take the pressure away. If she gets strung out again, we repeat. If she continues to carry herself, we travel a few more strides and then I’ll rest her for a couple minutes.
COTH is a great place for advice, but nothing beats in person instruction. From some of your previous posts, it seems you’re quite new to Western riding as a whole. A couple years ago, I was, too. If you haven’t yet found a trainer, I’d say that’d be a great option to pursue. They’ll be better suited to helping you with your new horse and getting a handle on Western tack and riding. They’ll also probably be able to sort out what he knows and what he may not know, and help you with any riding goals you may have.
I think making a blanket statement about the reining world is being too general. Some horses do naturally work with a low headset while maintaining impulsion and coming through from behind, but that’s not true of every horse. Al Dunning or Bob Avila, I forget now, had an article in a magazine that touched on that. The gist of the article was that this was a trend, and though visually appealing, not necessarily mandatory to win first place. Someone wins a big reining title on a horse who carries its head low and suddenly everyone is aspiring to that. That’s not untrue for any other discipline, though. It’s how particular riding styles or tack or breeds or whatever become a trend. Sometimes those trends stick around, sometimes they don’t. Horses going around on their forehand, too, isn’t exclusive to reining.
I’ll second what Bluey said, too. A lot of cutting horses are great in front of a cow, but they’re otherwise pretty lack luster unless they’ve had some reining fundamentals put on them. Lots of cutters can’t change leads, some can barely lope.
Contact and self-carriage is taught in essentially every style of riding. However, like beau159 said, the route you take is different. Sometimes the end goal, too, is a little different. In the discipline I do, a lot of horses are started in the snaffle bit. A lot of the foundation work is put on a horse in a snaffle and it’s the bit that people often return to go back to basics, so to speak, with older horses. I work on body control and suppling every day, working on collection is a part of that. My goal is to have my horse guiding between my hands with float in the reins, driving from behind with her shoulders elevated and free. My horse, bless her soul, airs on the lazier end of the scale so it’s quite a bit of wash, rinse, repeat. I’ll ride her into the bridle between my legs and hands, and once she comes through herself, I’ll take the pressure away. If she gets strung out again, we repeat. If she continues to carry herself, we travel a few more strides and then I’ll rest her for a couple minutes.
COTH is a great place for advice, but nothing beats in person instruction. From some of your previous posts, it seems you’re quite new to Western riding as a whole. A couple years ago, I was, too. If you haven’t yet found a trainer, I’d say that’d be a great option to pursue. They’ll be better suited to helping you with your new horse and getting a handle on Western tack and riding. They’ll also probably be able to sort out what he knows and what he may not know, and help you with any riding goals you may have.
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Lots of good posts. Collection is not something you set out to work on, it’s part of everyday training and riding. You are asking the horse to carry himself and balance himself from the beginning, so there is no reliance on the rider’s hands for the horse to balance himsef. The exercises the rider does help the horse to learn to balance front to back and side to side, and rock back on his hocks and lift his front end. Collection work is interspersed throughout the training program, but it’s not needed to the degree it’s needed in the dressage world. The trainer is looking at the end goal and training for that level of collection.
The stock breeds have very different conformation than the h/j and dressage horses. Their necks are set lower and are naturally carried lower. They are trained to be soft and willing. The English seem to think that these horses are on their forehands and punished, while those of us who recognize a well trained Western horse understand what a fabulous ride they are. I see some of the jumpers with their heads straight up and car engine bits and don’t understand why the riders allow that kind of carriage.
Warwick Schiller has a video where he uses a few tail hairs to tie the reins to the bit and rides a really wonderful mare like that. It demonstrates how light the contact is. You might need to be a subscriber to see it.
Here is a basic video of starting to teach collection to a young horse.
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In western, the goal is self carriage without holding them. The horse must be responsible for carrying himself. The styles are different between the western disciplines, in reining the reins are a lot longer and in cow horse they are more bridled up. I do agree that reiners do to tend to be a bit more on their forehand when compared to a cowhorse but I would not say they are heavy on the front end.
In western we tend to start them with contact and driving with the seat and legs. We slowly release the responsibility to the horse. When they get strung out, you pick the reins up while driving with the seat and legs and slowly release. It is not a quick process at all. I show cowhorses and it takes se real years to finish one out. Western horses are trained to rely more on seat and legs with the reins reinforcing the cue or providing the direction.
I would find a reputable trainer that can help you with the differences. Learning to trust the horse with holding them will be a challenge since you are coming from English but once you get it, there is nothing like it.
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Bluey, I will say, the modern day cowhorses are much more competitive in reining than they used to be. Most will score just as high or higher than the reiners. I think people have realized reined work is an equal part of your score and have worked to improve it. I work with both an NRHA trainer and a cowhorse trainer because it has gotten so competitive!
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True that, I watched the finals and so many were now up to snuff with their reining.
It has not trickled down that much yet, for what I see otherwise.
It will get there, just as the cutting part did once Boyd Rice, a real cutter, got involved in working cowhorse.
He did show everyone what real cutting was and quickly many paid attention.
Now reining is trying to get there, but there are still plenty of ugly, bouncy stops, incorrect footwork in spins, circles falling onto the inside shoulder, etc, out there, even in the finals.
Information is getting around, is just not quite out to everyone yet, but getting there.
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To the cow horse’s credit, too, they’ve got to be many things. Pretty in the reining, and have a lot of control and look on a cow, be it in the herd work or cow work. It’s tough for a horse to be good at all three events, let alone great. It’s tough, too, for a trainer to be so fluid that they can put that training on a horse seamlessly. Most guys are decent at all three, some are better, some are worse. You can typically count on Todd Bergen to set the pace in the rein work, and Boyd Rice in the herd work.
I don’t think it was a slight to say the cow horse’s reining isn’t as good as the reiner’s. It wouldn’t be a slight, either, to say the cow horse’s herd work isn’t as good as the cutter’s. It’s certainly getting more competitive. However, you do oftentimes see misses in the reining like Bluey mentioned above. You don’t typically see the same exemplary work in the cutting that you do in the NCHA events, either. They share some similarities, certainly, but each discipline has it’s own standard of mastery.
I really enjoy cow horse. It’s challenging - sometimes frustrating - and a lot of fun. I, too, seek the help of a few trainers locally. OP, we’ve deviated a bit from your original point but whether you’ve got some discipline specific goals or you’re riding for pleasure, a trainer would be able to help you best. It took me nearly two years from when I switched from English to begin to understand the training behind what I’m doing now. The learning doesn’t stop there, of course. What I know so far is a combination of theory and application from a variety of sources (local trainers, clinicians, online training resources). I ride competitively, so my goals may be different than yours. However, even if I didn’t intend to show, I would still employ at least one trainer. It can never hurt to lesson, even occasionally, under someone whose knowledge and experience will help you be a better horseperson long term.
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This has been my (limited) experience. The western trainer I have worked with has a reining background and starts a lot of young horses of all breeds. He starts all his horses in a snaffle, with contact and direct reining. The early training is essentially the same no matter what discipline the horse is headed for. I think he starts just as many dressage horses as he does western horses.
My friends have had Reined Cow Horses and at least used to do SBF…the horse must cut, run a dry pattern and then work a pattern with a single cow. They are big on breeding and selecting the right mind and type, not every horse can do it. Theirs have “self carriage” when they stand and nurse, trainers job is to direct that and stay out of their way.
A lot of it is on feel so it’s hard to explain but the horse IS on contact with 100% of it’s attention on the rider even if the onlooker can’t see it. And I think it was Bob Avila who pointed out the low head in reining is a fad that will last until somebody wins really big doing something else. Proof of that can be found looking back at videos of Reining from 20, 30, 40 years ago, even what used to be called Stock Horse out on the West Coast. And don’t confuse Reining, Working Cow or Reined Cow with Western Pleasure, thise class demands are different and they have their own fads.
Somebody asked about snaffle or curb? Depends on the horse and it’s physical ability plus where it is in its training. Add rider competence to that as well. Be sure to be clear on the mouthpiece not just the shanks before assuming it’s snaffle or curb, if it’s got shanks and a curb strap/chain, it’s a curb no mater how many pieces in the mouthpiece.Wouldnt hurt to understand curb ratio as well if you want to do some learning about bits and theory until it warms up again. These things make a difference in how the rider communicates with the horse and how the horse understands it.
Some horses are better at self carriage then others too, some can do it without a bridle, others never get it or just can’t do it. Be a good winter project to reasearch that.
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Remember though, just simply “picking up the reins” can often be a “false collection” if the horse is only tucking their head but not doing anything else with the rest of their body (nor getting any seat/leg cues from the rider). Sure, western horses might look like they are just doddling along on a loose rein, but often times the riding is doing lots with their legs and seat that you just can’t see.
So just like you push your horse into the bit with English style, you are going to be doing very similar things Western to get the horse to engage their body.
With a high ported shanked bit, I’m less likely to use a bit like that for training. It just depends on the design of the bit.
I don’t have a problem having contact on the mouth with a shanked bit, but in my opinion, it needs to be a bit that allows for direct communication laterally. Meaning, I want to be able to pick up on either side of their mouth without affecting the other side. I personally like bits that have a double joint in the mouthpiece, rather than just a single joint. I feel like I can get a better response from my horses with that. And also a bit where the shanks can swivel. Again, it just gives me more independence from side-to-side if that bit is “moveable”.
Of course, there’s nothing wrong with going back to a snaffle for training purposes either. The only dilemma there is that in the Western classes, you cannot SHOW in a snaffle once the horse is over a certain age. So it makes sense if you need to show in a curb, then you are also going to want to train in one (even if your showing bit is different than your schooling bit … or the same). There’s always more than one way to get from A to B.
I’d say you need to get around some better reining horses then.
OP - Reins often used with a curb bit have a heavier weight to them than standard English reins. I can pick up my hand and not appear to make contact with the bit, but the change in weight is enough of a signal to my horse. I can then squeeze or bump my horse with my legs to drive him into the bit and get him to collect. But I don’t hold him in frame…he needs to carry himself there. He shouldn’t need me to constantly tell him “nope - stay collected”.
TBH, being a ranch horse, the horse you are riding may not know how to go collected. A high port bit is not meant to be held onto. You may have to teach him using a snaffle or a smaller bit.
“In western we tend to start them with contact and driving with the seat and legs. We slowly release the responsibility to the horse. When they get strung out, you pick the reins up while driving with the seat and legs and slowly release. It is not a quick process at all. I show cowhorses and it takes se real years to finish one out. Western horses are trained to rely more on seat and legs with the reins reinforcing the cue or providing the direction.”
The above is a great explanation in my opinion.
I often see on the internet the argument between western and english/dressage version of collection. My experience with English and dressage could be written on my saddle horn with a tag pen. But I do believe there is a difference, a difference in horses and difference in what collection means, how its achieved, and the amount of time its held for.
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Let me add that " picking up" the reins might be actually just bumping heavier split reins with a middle finger or romal reins with a little finger and slight cock of the wrist, brushing lightly with a calf and shifting ever so slightly deeper in the saddle.
Horse feels it and reacts subtly. But you can’t see anything at all being done. That’s how you get a stop with just a bit more fingering the rein, lift of the wrist, calf bump and weight shift.
Think you need a ride one that actually is trained up to this to really understand the feel involved with somebody on tne ground to help you understand what’s happening and how to recreate it.
The biggest single leap in my comprehension as a rider was riding what we called a straight up in the bridle, finished horse with the build to carry itself. It was beyond a lightbulb moment, more like a star going nova moment. When I switched to Hunters, I used that lesson and started out on very well trained horses (that I could not afford to buy). It made a huge difference in learning the new discipline compared to the years of struggle the first time around.
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This, in spades. And honestly, I think the average “English” world rider would do a heck of a lot of to read this over and over again, because this is not a “western” thing - it’s universally good horsemanship.
A student and I had a chuckle the other day about why the “stretchy trot circle” is so difficult for so many dressage riders. If the horse is never taught to carry himself, and instead the rider “rescues” him every time he gets a bit unbalanced by tightening up on the reins, as soon as you release his head he’s going to get unbalanced again and speed up. Many horses never learn how to hold their own and it leads to the rider getting anxious and clutching the reins habitually. Then the horse never has the opportunity to figure out how to balance himself.
The other thing I’ve noticed quite often with “English” riders is this idea that contact = pressure. The horses bars and bit seat in the mouth are incredibly sensitive, which is why a well trained horse will yield his head and lift the base of his neck just from the rider picking a slack rein up. There’s always contact there, and the horse knows exactly what it means without the rider shortening up the reins and putting backwards tension into them…but that is exactly what so many “English” riders are taught.
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Watch a top level Hunter class, meaning top competition, not fence height. You won’t see any big moves with reins and you will often see a little slack in those reins. Not a loop, but no obvious pressure on the mouth. The horse is selected for its ability to carry itself and trained to develop it so it appears to get around without help.
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