How do you decide if a colt is a stallion prospect? Update post 143

[Plain_Jane]

[QUOTE=alexandra;5618648]

Real problems with stallions are manmade and the other problems exist in the mninds of people who have never learned or experienced a normal way to handle a stallion ![/QUOTE]

Alexandra, I agree with you completely, especially this last bit! So many people are incapable of raising and handling a stallion! I think we could learn a thing or two from European breeders, not just in bloodlines, but also a way of handling. This of course does not extend to all North Americans, there are plenty that are capable and do a fabulous job. Wish there were more like this!

[RyTimMick]

I look at it this way. An animal pumped full of Testosterone should demonstrate that a bit, because if they act like a gelding with the hormones, what would they be without them? Most horses are without them. If you can’t handle a stallion, then don’t, but don’t suggest that a stallion should not act like one. This is what it sounds like," I know you are looking to be breeding a horse that can compete at the top of world, but look how sweet and docile my stallion is"

Tim

[back_in_the_saddle]

NOT what I’m saying at all. Geeesh people get a flipp’n clue. :yes: If a stallion is a fire breathing dragon on a lead line and gets into my space and won’t respect my space after being told not to enter it doesn’t have the temperment to stay a stallion. Some geldings need to be shot on the spot IMO because gelding them didn’t fix the problem either. Again, people are envisioning a nice quiet qh. The wb geldings I’ve met aren’t nice quiet qh’s!!! If it’s got too much spunk it can’t focus to respect people on the ground, someone needs to grab the nearest nippers and fix the problem. Geldings don’t = dead head.

[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5618808]
I look at it this way. An animal pumped full of Testosterone should demonstrate that a bit, because if they act like a gelding with the hormones, what would they be without them? Most horses are without them. If you can’t handle a stallion, then don’t, but don’t suggest that a stallion should not act like one. This is what it sounds like," I know you are looking to be breeding a horse that can compete at the top of world, but look how sweet and docile my stallion is"

Tim[/QUOTE]

[stolensilver]

My YO has a 4yo stallion who will be going for his grading this year. He is Westpoint x Flemmingh/ Beaujolais (dam is a 3/4 sister to Krack C) I was worried sick when he first arrived as the fencing isn’t very high, 4’ maximum, and I was envisioning him leaping over the fences, savaging the geldings and chasing the mares. Nothing could be further from the truth. He is the perfect gentleman. Leads beautifully, works under saddle beautifully and anyone can go in his stable to give him a scratch. But he is also very much a stallion. He has that presence about him. Being shiny black and having a cresty neck helps too!

When stallion shopping for my mare I have been to see dozens of stallions and good manners are very high on the list of requirements. If a stallion comes across as difficult to handle or aggressive he is off the list immediately. There are too many other wonderfully behaved stallions who are friendly in the stable and willing under saddle to use one that does not show these traits.

Most stallions do seem to fit these criteria. At the Trakehner stallion grading at Neumunster you were welcome to go to the stables and see the stallions. Sone owners allowed people in the stables too. Earlier this year there was a big stallion show in the UK where spectators were invited to meet the stallions in the stables after their display. Most of those stallions were in their stables with the doors open, their owners outside, and visitors were welcomed in to really look closely at the stallion. The most popular ones sometimes had 3 or 4 people in their stable at a time with a crowd outside. These were all competition stallions, several were international competitors, some were Olympians. Having seen so many beautifully behaved stallions that is the standard I want in a stallion I use and a stallion I stand (if that ever happens).

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;5618222]
But admit that regardless of what my filly is like, good, bad, excellent, horrible, that if it puts one step wrong, forget that it’s a young horse, you won’t like it because it’s by Stedinger. [/QUOTE]

Not true. I am actually quite a fan of several Stedinger youngsters - including the one bred by Home Again Farm (Soliloquoy). I just tend to think of them much like Jazz offspring - gorgeous, fancy moving horses that are not generally for the average amateur.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;5618825]
Geeesh people get a flipp’n clue. [/QUOTE]

Nice.

@back in the saddle;5618825

:yes: If a stallion is a fire breathing dragon on a lead line and gets into my space and won’t respect my space after being told not to enter it doesn’t have the temperment to stay a stallion.

I will repeat my earlier comment - 99% of stallions in Germany would be geldings, then. You need to take a trip to Europe and attend one of the German stallion licensings or stallion shows, or visit one of the big German stallion stations, esp. when they are taking stallions to be collected. You will see plenty of them acting like “fire breathing dragons”. :lol:

[stolensilver]

DownYonder the stallion grading I attended in Germany had very, very few fire breathing dragons. There were two that fitted that description and they were father and son. I made a note never to use either of them!

I do agree that a stallion has to have presence but even in Germany the overwhelming majority of stallions both young and old are well behaved and obedient.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=alexandra;5618648]
Real problems with stallions are manmade and the other problems exist in the mninds of people who have never learned or experienced a normal way to handle a stallion ![/QUOTE]

Can’t agree more. I really think that there’s some strange thinking about stallions here in the US. They are a horse, first and foremost. They can pretty easily learn what behavior is allowed/expected and when and where. My kids handled the stallions on my place when they were anywhere from about 10 or 11 years old and up (the kids, not the horses). I believe that horses are very sensitive to what is expected of them and I think we get exactly what we expect…ie…expect stallions to be wired up and unpredictable and all that means that is what you send out to the horse and that is what you get. Expect them to be sensible and to behave and to learn what he can do and when and where and that’s what you get. True…I have breeds (QH’s and Paints) that are, by reputation, probably more mellow than WB breeds and TB’s although I’ve handled at few TB stallions and had no problems with them. And I’ve handled some hot bred Arabs also without problems. It takes time, effort, thought and consistancy to get a well mannered stallion but it certainly is not difficult. A sense of humor helps as well…most of mine are practical jokesters given the opportunity and they KNOW when the opportunity is there. Fairness is extremely important… they have a huge sense of what is fair and what isn’t and being unfair with them, isolating them from social contact, treating them as many stallions ARE treated in this country WILL result in animals that are what is expected of stallions here…the dangerous, rowdy, wired up and misbehaving beast that we have created. It is a circular thing…we expect poor behavior, give off that vibe, get the behavior we expect, often are inconsistant in our messages to the horse and get the horse we expect upon which we geld. I’m sure there are many horses that need to be gelded due to quality of the horse…they simply are not stallion material. I think too that there are some few that need to be gelded due to inborn mental issues. But I also think that there are a lot that are gelded due to manmade problems arising from poor management, handling or training.

[NoDQhere]

I think Alexandra really hit the nail on the head with her reference that in Europe stallions are not pets. We see so many ill mannered horses of all sexes in this country, mostly because so many of the horses are pets. (IMO we can thank the “flavor of the day” Natural Horsemanshippers" for that, but that would be a whole 'nuther thread :lol:)

We have never had a stallion cause trouble, because they understand what is expected of them. We don’t “beat the hell out of them”, nor do we “coochie smoochie” them. They are treated exactly like any other horse. We really don’t do anything different because of sex. If any horse gets silly, they are put to work until their attention is where it is supposed to be. Their breeding routine is different from the rest of their lives and they know it. When at a show they behave like well mannered show horses. At breeding time they are stallions and allowed to be stallions.

We are raising a youngster now that is looking very much like a “stallion prospect”. He has that “look” and the presence, yet he is well mannered and enjoys time spent with people. He lives with a herd of geldings and comes into the barn daily for extra rations because he is at the bottom of the pecking order. Time will tell…

[Cartier]

I agree with many of the posters above. Too many people have some sort of Walt Disney naïve-child’s view of what animals should act like… which is something akin to lifeless, dull and flat, which to many equals “good temperament.” We see this in the dogs and the horses. I suspect this comes from urbanites, who are never around animals much, whose only view of how a stallion should act comes from T.V. and video.

I love the fire and sparkle of an animal that exudes both breed and sex type. In addition to the horses, we raise and show Dobermans. We have people come to us that basically want a soft, goofy “buddy to friend and foe alike” Golden Retriever temperament, in a Doberman form… as though that was ideal. Emphatically it is not. Dobermans were bred as guard dogs. A good Doberman show dog has to own the ground he stands on, he has to have fire and a bit of arrogance, up on his toes, as though ready to explode, yet still under control. There is nothing even remotely submissive about the effect.

It is the same with stallions, they can be loving, gentle and very responsive to commands… but in addition to a fine pedigree and other physical attributes, they absolutely must have the presence that is linked to their gender. Whether the folks at Walt Disney agree or not, in my opinion, it is not desirable that they act like castrated submissive creatures.

[grayarabpony]

Cartier… you have posted here about your intact male dogs getting into fights that you couldn’t control. That to me is bad breeding. Or bad training. Or both. Take your pick.

In reality, “pumped full of testosterone”, whether human, equine, whatever, means a creature that’s thinking with its downstairs brain. That’s hardly ever a good thing.

Mares and geldings can sparkle and have presence too. It may be different from stallion presence but it’s presence nonetheless. And it’s not as though a lot of geldings won’t go through all of the breeding motions with mares.

What I am trying to say is that while of course stallions and geldings are different, they shouldn’t be that different. stolensilver provided some excellent examples of good stallion behavior.

[fannie_mae]

to answer the intial poster’s question, how do you recognize a stallion prospect?

a) presense
any stallion prospect needs to embody presense and this is usually a visible feature from the first day on unless they have been heavily “foalded” and as such need some time to strech after birth. but usually even those heavily “foalded” ones don’t take more than a week to develop this certain required “presense”. if they don’t show it in young age they never will.
it is a natural given “gift”, even though it is completely uselass (unless for optical demands) since it says nothing about their later quality as riding horses or potential breeding quality. it is, however, the first thing stallion raisers look at and require.
presense.

b) presense

c) presense

d) dynamics
naturally given rhythm in trott and ideally an uphill tendency from behind in all three gaites - easiest to be spottet the younger they are since the young sceletton is a very good hint with respect to how the mature horse will be constructed and as such later dynamics will work.
lack of uphill tendency is only forgiven if the pedigree suggests excellence in jumping.

e) correct exterieur

f) mother
something i haven’t found mentioned before in any of the above posts and it really makes me wonder…
whenever i had potential buyers look at my colts the first question was:
how does the mother come along?
and here it comes again:
a potential stallion porspect’s dam very rarely lacks presense herself.
they often show as much presense as the later desired stallion…
and while potential “flaws” in the dam can be forgiven if they are not reflected in the son, they should exclude the potential foal as a stallion prospect if they show up in the colt, too.

g) pedigree
usually the first and most important tool to catch people’s interest, but if the colt’s quality speaks for itself pedigree doesn’t matter at all. (or the other way round: the most exquisit pedigree doesn’t help if the foal is lacking a - c)

[grayarabpony]

Holy cr@p I’d take athletic ability and rideability over “presence” any day.

To be fair stolensilver did discuss the mare in the original post.

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;5619288]
Cartier… you have posted here about your intact male dogs getting into fights that you couldn’t control. That to me is bad breeding. Or bad training. Or both. Take your pick.[/QUOTE]

It is neither bad breeding or bad training. Agression towards other males is not unusual. And of course, you can have females that for whatever reasons come to dislike each other. While we’d all like to avoid it, I can’t think of any breeder I know, in any breed, that hasn’t experienced dog on dog agression. It does not taint the dog at all, we have one that went on to be a therapy and SAR dog.

[fannie_mae]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;5619294]
Holy cr@p I’d take athletic ability and rideability over “presence” any day.

To be fair stolensilver did discuss the mare in the original post.[/QUOTE]

and how do you define ridability in a young foal, may i ask?
what stallion risers buy in a young colt is hope, hope and hope in the first place.

[Oakstable]

Agree on “hope.”
I had one once that sold for a good price before he was 6 months old. He was stunning, bay with chrome, big black eyes and the look of eagles. The buyer wanted him as a stallion. He had the pedigree for it. The dam was an imported Hanoverian with a 3/4 brother standing at Celle. The sire was a son of Furioso II out of an Emigrant mare.

The colt had all the presence you would want, but he couldn’t concentrate around mares despite extensive training. The buyer finally called me at the end of her rope, and said she’d have to geld him unless I wanted him back.

I’m assuming she gelded him. I never heard from her again.

[ahf]

f) mother
something i haven’t found mentioned before in any of the above posts and it really makes me wonder…
whenever i had potential buyers look at my colts the first question was:
how does the mother come along?
and here it comes again:
a potential stallion porspect’s dam very rarely lacks presense herself.
they often show as much presense as the later desired stallion…

You know, that’s funny. I’m sure it’s true - but it has been the complete opposite on my small breeding farm.

The mare that draws everyone to her with her powerful presence (the one that carries the nickname “the force of nature” or simply “the force”) has only had one filly that she passed that on to. Her other foals have been fine individuals… but that just don’t have her aura.

The mare that is sweet, but aloof, (that nobody has ever paid much attention to when they visit the farm) has without exception produced foals with presence and a certain nobility. And even though the mare is not, all of them have been alpha in their groups.

Perhaps they are the exceptions that proves the rule, but I’ve always remarked on it because it’s just not the way one would expect … and I find it odd.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=fannie mae;5619291]
to answer the intial poster’s question, how do you recognize a stallion prospect?

a) presense
any stallion prospect needs to embody presense and this is usually a visible feature from the first day on unless they have been heavily “foalded” and as such need some time to strech after birth. but usually even those heavily “foalded” ones don’t take more than a week to develop this certain required “presense”. if they don’t show it in young age they never will.
it is a natural given “gift”, even though it is completely uselass (unless for optical demands) since it says nothing about their later quality as riding horses or potential breeding quality. it is, however, the first thing stallion raisers look at and require.
presense.

b) presense

c) presense

d) dynamics
naturally given rhythm in trott and ideally an uphill tendency from behind in all three gaites - easiest to be spottet the younger they are since the young sceletton is a very good hint with respect to how the mature horse will be constructed and as such later dynamics will work.
lack of uphill tendency is only forgiven if the pedigree suggests excellence in jumping.

e) correct exterieur

f) mother
something i haven’t found mentioned before in any of the above posts and it really makes me wonder…
whenever i had potential buyers look at my colts the first question was:
how does the mother come along?
and here it comes again:
a potential stallion porspect’s dam very rarely lacks presense herself.
they often show as much presense as the later desired stallion…
and while potential “flaws” in the dam can be forgiven if they are not reflected in the son, they should exclude the potential foal as a stallion prospect if they show up in the colt, too.

g) pedigree
usually the first and most important tool to catch people’s interest, but if the colt’s quality speaks for itself pedigree doesn’t matter at all. (or the other way round: the most exquisit pedigree doesn’t help if the foal is lacking a - c)[/QUOTE]

The mother of my stallion mentioned above has a long show record at 1.50 & 1.60 meter.

[sid]

Ditto BayHawk, Alexandra and DownYonder’s prior posts about “stallion behavior” and “temperament”. I think many novices to the stallion psyche often get the two mixed up.

That said, to answer the OP’s question, the decision to keep a colt intact can (and should) often be based upon what the inspection jury has to say when he is first presented. They’ve seen thousands of colts, so use their experience to help you with that decision. Then, you’ll find out at a licensing whether their assessment pans out or not.

Be prepared to have some deep pockets to get through the process of owning, training, semen evaluation costs and marketing the horse (as well as housing modifications needed to keep a stallion and other horses safe and content).

When Argosy was sold out of the Elite Foal Auction in Verden, the jury suggested to the buyer that he not be gelded – that he MIGHT be a stallion prospect. That is why he was not gelded. I bought him at 2 1/2 as a PROSPECT. He failed the Hanoverian licensing due to a big fat ankle from having injured his leg some weeks before. 3 mos. later he was licensed by the GOV. Though he never made it to the 100 DT so long ago when it was very difficult (and with problems between the Olds.) and his license eventually expired, he has been sought after for hunter/jumper sport prospects.

And interestingly, though he is no longer licensed, he has an approved son with Old/NA from his very first foal crop.

There is a lot of time and money and management involved with stallions – beyond the “stallion behavior” vs. “temperament” issue.

I’d look at the complications a stallion can bring to your life, your farm set up/management and your pocketbook first. If you can’t accomodate, happily, all of that then what he’s like is a moot point. And, most of all rely on inspectors who are very experienced in picking colts that actually DO wind up being stallions.

It can be quite a journey, and a fun one, but frought with challenges that is not for everyone…

Good luck!

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=fannie mae;5619323]
and how do you define ridability in a young foal, may i ask?
what stallion risers buy in a young colt is hope, hope and hope in the first place.[/QUOTE]

Oh, that’s cute. I suppose you must know that I was not referring to rideability in a foal. What sort of person decides once and for all that a colt is a stallion prospect when he’s a foal anyway? When they’re at the magic 3 month window maybe… otherwise there’s too much change going on, especially in the very beginning.

Anyway, I can’t see presence being what? the first three things on a list… even for a foal.