[QUOTE=Cartier;5619315]
It is neither bad breeding or bad training. [/QUOTE]
Fighting that you cannot stop or control is not a sign of bad breeding or bad training? On bizarro world maybe.
Again, maybe not on bizzaro world. That sort of behavior should lead to the dog getting nipped immediately. There sure as heck doesn’t need to be more dogs like that in the world.
Dobermans are not supposed to be ready to explode. What you’re describing is a fighting dog, not a guard dog.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;5619635]
Fighting that you cannot stop or control is not a sign of bad breeding or bad training? On bizarro world maybe.
Again, maybe not on bizzaro world. That sort of behavior should lead to the dog getting nipped immediately. There sure as heck doesn’t need to be more dogs like that in the world.
Dobermans are not supposed to be ready to explode. What you’re describing is a fighting dog, not a guard dog.[/QUOTE]
Hmm??? You have no website or data, so I have to go by what you are saying here. I get from your responses that you have very limited experiences in dogs (I have no clue what your experiences are in horses). You seem to take things rather literally, so I will try to anticipate your misconceptions.
Here goes: Of course we were able to “stop or control” the situation. We are able to keep intact animals in harmony in the home. An incident where an animal acts as evolution intended does not mark the animal as defective. We show our dogs. They are routinely in settings with hundreds of other dogs, in close proximity, where their temperament is evaluated, along with their structure. They understand the limits. They are not remotely as aggressive as dogs bred and used for fighting. The fact that two males might on occasion have an altercation is natural (even if undesired). It is not, in and of itself, reason to castrate a dog.
And the feeling of being about to “explode” was simply a way to describe what that animal is projecting. It is an impression, e.g., when the dog is up on his toes, with his neck arched. But, so as not to be misleading, I guess I should be very clear that dogs do not actually explode. :lol: If you’ve ever watched a dog show you will see many many many handlers using bait (often a piece of liver) to get expression out of a dog. Handlers want the dog up on their toes, neck arched… tingling. That is how many dogs, including most all Terriers, Dobermans, Boxers, Schnauzers, Poodles etc are shown in this country (and in South America and other countries around the world). That sex linked posturing is not a reason to castrate a dog… rather, it is often associated with character that is the very purpose of the breed.
Taking this back to the thread… I am simply agreeing with those who say that a stallion has to have a gender linked presence about him. I should not have to bend over to check that he is a stallion. And, it is not a bad thing that he acts like a stallion in certain situations. Same is true of male dogs that we would consider in a breeding program. Their very presence exudes that they are males. But, if you like you males limp (no pun intended) and docile, that is entirely up to you. Different strokes for different folks.
Well said, Cartier…:yes:.
I’m a bit miffed about how this thread so quickly morphed into a discussion about two entirely different species.
Masculitity displays itself in all species of the “un-neutered” variety, but how you handle them is completely different.
Horse = 1,500 lbs. Dog = 50 lbs. average.
When people can stop thinking about horses as if they are dogs, horses will be better off – the expections will be realistic – and both horse and handler/owner would be in sync…:lol:
Take the (former) stallion Gifted. Do you know why he was gelded? Because he couldn’t concentrate at shows and was tired from staying awake all night. So he was gelded and that helped his performance.
Presence is good. But when too much testesterome interferes with performance it’s not so good. I believe that if a young colt can’t learn to behave at a young age, that temperment won’t necessairly get better as he ages. They’re showing you what they’re made of at a very early age.
It’s testosterone, not “testosterome”.
Even as a gelding Gifted was a very tough horse and quite difficult for his handlers and in a stall…sans the testicles.
This is not as black and white as everyone wants to make it.
Good colt turns into bad stallion due to inexperienced handing. Good stallion who had good early training, turns into bad stallion.
Handling and training is everything from the getgo for all horses, but especially for stallions who are hardwired differently than most horses simply due to the fact they are wired to fight perceived dominance and to breed and possess mares (harem).
The rub is, that if it is not done well or consistently with a young colt, or stays consistent even a well-trained older stallion (the human-stallion relationship) they can regress to his true nature and one can see the results PDQ. Above all else, all horses…and especially stallion…do the best with consistency. They will know what to expect. They ARE, after all, creatures of habit.
Just my observation.
I’ve been following this thread with some interest and I think I tend to agree more with the Europeans about stallion behavior.
While temperament is important, I will climb into my flame suit, zip it up tightly and declare “It is NOT the most important thing in a stallion.”
Ability is. Over and over on this board I hear the mantra of temperament, temperament, temperament.
Well, yeah, if you are breeding for middle-aged ammies with average riding skills, you’re right – it is.
But it’s gotten alittle crazy that this seems to be the #1 thing people (mostly Americans it seems) stress. If that is our main concern, then we will end up with animals that are all Golden Retriever-like in terms of attitude, but with little ability or brilliance.
Geeze, I just came from the Racing Forum where someone suggested that the less-than-steller temperament of a champion race mare (who is known to be somewhat of a nasty girl) keep her from being voted HOY “for the good of the breed.”
Huh? This mare is one of the best milers of our time – who cares if she’s nasty or not?
As with all living creatures, upbringing has much to do with all of this and you can’t expect a young stallion to behave like a gelding without proper training just like you can’t expect a 14 yr old boy to behave like a full grown man.
But it seems so many folks (I guess mainly Americans) expect colts to act like geldings from the very first.
Probably not going to happen.
I can’t advise the OP if she should keep her colt entire or not – I WOULD certainly get him out and show him many, many times first and present him to as many other experts as possible before I decide, because barn blindness can happen to all of us.
But I would also hope that many of us in this country start to raise our game in terms of horse handling instead of breeding “down” just so we can have stock we can deal with…
Right now I’m raising a “gelding prospect” (that’s what my vet calls 'em;)) myself and determined to give him the kind of raising that will allow him to show what quality of animal he is till I can make up my mind what to do with his little brain.
Very true. Some are more naturally ‘wired’ to be better domesticated stallions by nature than others.
Based on what you said about Gifted, it sounds like he would have most likely fit into the geld NOW category as a colt. Those are they types that don’t need to be a domesticated stallion. He needed to be more gelding like in order to have been a good domesticated stallion. Had he been more “geldingish” and been able to put his worries aside, he would probably not been gelded. :yes:
But it seems so many folks (I guess mainly Americans) expect colts to act like geldings from the very first.
NOT true!!! A young horse filly, colt, gelding, etc… is going to be an idiot more times than not. If he’s got a Gifted like temperment… he doesn’t need to be a stallion. THAT’s what I’m saying.
The presence is gender expression , character , intelligence , competiveness , dominance, the will to fight and will to survive.
I want this potential being thrown on my foals. This is why it is the #1 criteria of initial stallion selection in Europe. If the two year old doesn’t exhibit this presence , he is usually immediately dismissed.
Fannie Mae is correct. You see this very early on as babies. They either have it or they don’t.
I know a wealthy breeder who once told me her show string of stallions MUST act like geldings at shows. Guess what ? She has never won a class with any of them.
I don’t think alot of Americans really can differentiate between REAL stallion presence and “fire breathing dragon” and this goes directly to the lack of breeding culture in this country in my opinion.
It is quite possible to have a stallion with presence and still have good disposition. The simple fact for most of us is that we are breeding to sell to the middle aged ammy’s. It is important to me for my stallions to have a good disposition as well as the mares for this reason and the fact that I’m the one who starts all of mine. I am not green to handling stallions, working in the breeding shed, nor backing/starting babies but I do like it to be relatively easy (not deadly). I want a horse that from the moment he steps off the trailer, everyone knows he is a stallion (you don’t have to bend over to see testicles); however, he better be well behaved and easily manageable because after working 50 hours during the week I’m the one who’s going to climb aboard and likely have 2 or 3 others I’m showing too. I will cut a stallion who is rank (and that’s stallion, not stud because if there is any question I won’t breed him).
I agree that few in this country understand what is or is not reasonable stallion behavior and fewer still know how to train (and that’s any horse not just stallions). The problem is that horsemanship is dead and few look at their horses as livestock. However, for those of us who grew up in a world where horses were still used for a purpose and income was based on production using horses, we know not only what is good stallion material but how to make it clear what job is what and what behavior is allowed with each. Oh and I’m from American stock that came over here in the 1600s so I’m not that closely connected with Europe and can still tell the difference.
Honestly… some of these posts sound suspiciously like breeding for the auction and inspection ring and not for the performance ring.
[QUOTE=exvet;5620386]
It is quite possible to have a stallion with presence and still have good disposition. The simple fact for most of us is that we are breeding to sell to the middle aged ammy’s. It is important to me for my stallions to have a good disposition as well as the mares for this reason and the fact that I’m the one who starts all of mine. I am not green to handling stallions, working in the breeding shed, nor backing/starting babies but I do like it to be relatively easy (not deadly). I want a horse that from the moment he steps off the trailer, everyone knows he is a stallion (you don’t have to bend over to see testicles); however, he better be well behaved and easily manageable because after working 50 hours during the week I’m the one who’s going to climb aboard and likely have 2 or 3 others I’m showing too. I will cut a stallion who is rank (and that’s stallion, not stud because if there is any question I won’t breed him).
I agree that few in this country understand what is or is not reasonable stallion behavior and fewer still know how to train (and that’s any horse not just stallions). The problem is that horsemanship is dead and few look at their horses as livestock. However, for those of us who grew up in a world where horses were still used for a purpose and income was based on production using horses, we know not only what is good stallion material but how to make it clear what job is what and what behavior is allowed with each. Oh and I’m from American stock that came over here in the 1600s so I’m not that closely connected with Europe and can still tell the difference.[/QUOTE]
See, this is just it. Most confuse stallion presence with rank. They don’t want the stallion to prance or yell or anything. You wouldn’t believe what I see at shows sometimes…break their nose with a chain just because they yell and prance. Unbelievable. Folks try and make the stallion walk with them instead of them walking with the stallion. A good example of Alexandra’s statement about making a fuss.
Go to a stallion approval in Holstein and you will see some of the best handling the world has to offer. They let them be. If they want to stand , they go with it. If they strike or kick out , they go with it. If they want to eat the decorative garland , they let them. The handlers NEVER take it personal.
I have personally handled Contender , Corrado , Caretino and Cassini. Puppy dogs ! You get them in the middle of an arena with 10,000 people , other stallions and mares. Totally NOT puppy dogs. They are what they are.
Most folks in this country take a stallions behaviour personally without understanding that it is what it is.
I have been reading this post as it interests me very much. I have my first colt that I am taking the “wait and see” approach with. I am surprised at how some don’t seem to be able to get that there is a difference between a horse that acts his gender and one that is actually mean. My little fella is just about to be a month old. He already commands the “room” when he steps out of his stall. I am sure he will be quite the handful at times as well, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a good mind! He is brave, independent, level headed and solid, but is he at all geldinglike? NO!!! Do I want him to be. NO! Do I expect him to do all the stuff the others do without hurting me. YES!! Will I expect him to behave in public. YES! Will I expect him to step off a trailer and plod along behind me when he starts to show. NOPE!
I know a few of you touched on the mothers as well. Guess what. His mother has total command of the “room” when she is out of her stall as well. Do I have any trouble handling her? Nope! Is she mean? Nope. Will she be an ammie horse? Depends on the ammie. She will never be “geldinglike” either, so should I have not bred her!
Lets not get caught up in the difference between an animal with breed and gender presence and one that is just a nasty animal. Also for the record I am normally in the group who gelds colts the fall of their birth year once the bugs aren’t so bad. This is the first colt I have bred that I feel is worthy of getting to “wait and see”. So far my trainer and vet feel the same as me.
To the OP, if you have the facility, why not wait and see. As another has said, you can’t put them back on!
It is not just at Holstein approval like that. You can go everywhere.
Each year there is a private stallion show at Verden. About 50-60 stallions privately owned are shown at one event.
it starts at 3 in the afternoon with the coming together. all the visitors can go into the barns where the stallions are stabled for the day. You can not just walk along the aisle (well walking is a bit exagerated as it is normall so crowded that you push yourself around.) The stallions are in their stalls. normal stalls with a wooden part at the bottom and bars on top. Nothing especially set up for stallions. If you ask friendly the people handling/owning the stallions will open the doors for you or people opne them themselves to have a close look. Have not seen people entereing the stalls though, but it would not be an issue the horses are just standing there munching their hay. When the start of the “real” show comes closer some of these stallions are pulled out in the aisle to brush and saddle them. The croud just passes them, no issue no problems will happen. I have only seen a few pacing in their stalls but not more or less than during auction times in the past when there still was the parade of each horse and the crowd was pushing through the aislesbefore the auction.
Bottom Line towards the OP: if you think you have an excewptional foal and you have the option to show it to people who buy, raise and sell colts for living who think it is a good foal than just let him grow up, wait and see.
Good Luck !
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;5620428]
Honestly… some of these posts sound suspiciously like breeding for the auction and inspection ring and not for the performance ring.[/QUOTE]
GAP…you simply don’t have enough experience to know the difference. You are part of the lacking breeding culture I speak of in this country. I am not trying to insult you here , only point out your own resume admissions. You have bred one horse and you worked at a breeding facility. I doubt you’ve ever handled a stallion. You don’t know what you don’t know.
Instead of making snarky replies and argumentative responses , why don’t you sit back and try and learn something ? There are some very enlightening posters on this thread.
[QUOTE=alexandra;5620516]
It is not just at Holstein approval like that. You can go everywhere.
Each year there is a private stallion show at Verden. About 50-60 stallions privately owned are shown at one event.
it starts at 3 in the afternoon with the coming together. all the visitors can go into the barns where the stallions are stabled for the day. You can not just walk along the aisle (well walking is a bit exagerated as it is normall so crowded that you push yourself around.) The stallions are in their stalls. normal stalls with a wooden part at the bottom and bars on top. Nothing especially set up for stallions. If you ask friendly the people handling/owning the stallions will open the doors for you or people opne them themselves to have a close look. Have not seen people entereing the stalls though, but it would not be an issue the horses are just standing there munching their hay. When the start of the “real” show comes closer some of these stallions are pulled out in the aisle to brush and saddle them. The croud just passes them, no issue no problems will happen. I have only seen a few pacing in their stalls but not more or less than during auction times in the past when there still was the parade of each horse and the crowd was pushing through the aislesbefore the auction.
Bottom Line towards the OP: if you think you have an excewptional foal and you have the option to show it to people who buy, raise and sell colts for living who think it is a good foal than just let him grow up, wait and see.
Good Luck ![/QUOTE]
Oh I know it’s not just in Holstein Alexandra. I was only speaking to my own experiences.
You are spot on with your assessment. Same thing with the young stallions in the barn in Nuemunster. Standing in the aisle , getting groomed with crowds of people walking right by them. No problem…
[QUOTE=everafterfarm;5620491]
I have been reading this post as it interests me very much. I have my first colt that I am taking the “wait and see” approach with. I am surprised at how some don’t seem to be able to get that there is a difference between a horse that acts his gender and one that is actually mean. My little fella is just about to be a month old. He already commands the “room” when he steps out of his stall. I am sure he will be quite the handful at times as well, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a good mind! He is brave, independent, level headed and solid, but is he at all geldinglike? NO!!! Do I want him to be. NO! Do I expect him to do all the stuff the others do without hurting me. YES!! Will I expect him to behave in public. YES! Will I expect him to step off a trailer and plod along behind me when he starts to show. NOPE!
I know a few of you touched on the mothers as well. Guess what. His mother has total command of the “room” when she is out of her stall as well. Do I have any trouble handling her? Nope! Is she mean? Nope. Will she be an ammie horse? Depends on the ammie. She will never be “geldinglike” either, so should I have not bred her!
Lets not get caught up in the difference between an animal with breed and gender presence and one that is just a nasty animal. Also for the record I am normally in the group who gelds colts the fall of their birth year once the bugs aren’t so bad. This is the first colt I have bred that I feel is worthy of getting to “wait and see”. So far my trainer and vet feel the same as me.
To the OP, if you have the facility, why not wait and see. As another has said, you can’t put them back on![/QUOTE]
Of course a gelding and a stallion are not going to be alike, and I don’t really think anyone is saying that they are … but a gelding can have a lot of presence too. There’s a lot more to presence and personality than testicles.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5620517]
GAP…you simply don’t have enough experience to know the difference. You are part of the lacking breeding culture I speak of in this country. I am not trying to insult you here , only point out your own resume admissions. You have bred one horse and you worked at a breeding facility. I doubt you’ve ever handled a stallion. You don’t know what you don’t know.
Instead of making snarky replies and argumentative responses , why don’t you sit back and try and learn something ? There are some very enlightening posters on this thread.[/QUOTE]
Of course you’re trying to insult me, as usual, and of course you are wrong, as usual. I betcha thought my homebred was a foal this year, and I know you think I’m a teenager, which is pretty laughable. I’ve been around horses and breeding operations for 25 years, and I’ve watched a lot of competitions, as well as ridden in a few. Over that amount of time people tend to pick up a few things. So instead of calling me ignorant why don’t you shut up?
Dominance and rideability don’t really go together you know. There has to be a fine balance between the two and I don’t know why it would be an especially prized trait in a domestic horse. I always wonder how much you yourself have ridden – perhaps a lot, but you don’t sound like it, that’s for sure – and if you come from a background of breeding show dogs.
And, why don’t you stop being so condescending overall – it would be a very refreshing change!
We all know you don’t like TB mares. So what? It doesn’t give you free rein to insult people who would and have used them. You used a TB mare with bad feet and other faults and now cast dispersions on most all TBs. Well, that was your stupid.
back to your regularly scheduled threat… stolensilver good luck with your colt.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;5623529]
Of course you’re trying to insult me, as usual, and of course you are wrong, as usual. I betcha thought my homebred was a foal this year, and I know you think I’m a teenager, which is pretty laughable. I’ve been around horses and breeding operations for 25 years, and I’ve watched a lot of competitions, as well as ridden in a few. Over that amount of time people tend to pick up a few things. So instead of calling me ignorant why don’t you shut up?
Dominance and rideability don’t really go together you know. There has to be a fine balance between the two and I don’t know why it would be an especially prized trait in a domestic horse. I always wonder how much you yourself have ridden – perhaps a lot, but you don’t sound like it, that’s for sure – and if you come from a background of breeding show dogs.
And, why don’t you stop being so condescending overall – it would be a very refreshing change!
We all know you don’t like TB mares. So what? It doesn’t give you free rein to insult people who would and have used them. You used a TB mare with bad feet and other faults and now cast dispersions on most all TBs. Well, that was your stupid.
back to your regularly scheduled threat… stolensilver good luck with your colt.[/QUOTE]
I always knew it was only a matter of time before you went back to the same ol GAP that doesn’t have anything inteliigent to offer and can’t stay on topic. Thanks for proving me right.
Stallion presence, or being able to see and know what it is , has nothing to do with TB mares , dogs , your age , the fact that you’ve only every bred one horse , riding experience etc. GAP you have along way to go go before you develope any measurable equine experience. You can’t learn while you’re mouth is open.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5623680]
I always knew it was only a matter of time before you went back to the same ol GAP that doesn’t have anything inteliigent to offer and can’t stay on topic. Thanks for proving me right.
Stallion presence, or being able to see and know what it is , has nothing to do with TB mares , dogs , your age , the fact that you’ve only every bred one horse , riding experience etc. GAP you have along way to go go before you develope any measurable equine experience. You can’t learn while you’re mouth is open.[/QUOTE]
No dog in this fight but I think it’s time to let this argument die, or take it to another thread. This post is waaaay off topic now.
C’mon, folks. Arguing solves nothing. Why not just agree to disagree?
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5620436]
See, this is just it. Most confuse stallion presence with rank. They don’t want the stallion to prance or yell or anything. You wouldn’t believe what I see at shows sometimes…break their nose with a chain just because they yell and prance. Unbelievable. Folks try and make the stallion walk with them instead of them walking with the stallion. A good example of Alexandra’s statement about making a fuss.
Go to a stallion approval in Holstein and you will see some of the best handling the world has to offer. They let them be. If they want to stand , they go with it. If they strike or kick out , they go with it. If they want to eat the decorative garland , they let them. The handlers NEVER take it personal.
I have personally handled Contender , Corrado , Caretino and Cassini. Puppy dogs ! You get them in the middle of an arena with 10,000 people , other stallions and mares. Totally NOT puppy dogs. They are what they are.
Most folks in this country take a stallions behaviour personally without understanding that it is what it is.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn’t put up with the striking or any behaviors like that. I don’t mind if a stallion wants to give a little whuffle at the mares as we walk past their paddock, I don’t even mind if he wants to stop and say hi, but he has to ask and he better not try to drag me over there if I say no! But this is not specific to stallions, it is specific to horses. When they are being handled there is are rules and expectations, and if those are crossed or not met then there are consequences.
There is no striking, biting, or dragging of the handler. I have been handling stallions since I was 10 years old (had permission to show a stallion in hand and under saddle at 13), and these are things that have been ingrained in me. They are horses and they should be permitted to act like horses, but that doesn’t mean that they should be any more in your space or dangerous than the mare or gelding standing next to them.
Quite frankly even some of the easiest to handle stallions that I’ve worked with still were not great competition horses. One was sweet on the ground, good to handle, but he just didn’t relax when out and about with other horses at show grounds. Never called or had “unruly stallion behavior” but was just strung tight all the time till you got him home.
Maybe I’m particular about my space, but it is mine, and theirs is theirs. Stallions (like any other horse) have to ask. I don’t take it personally if they are having an off day, everyone is allowed one once in a while, but dangerous behaviors are NOT tolerated.
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