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How do you decide if a colt is a stallion prospect? Update post 143

Sport Horse Breeding
#81

Personally, I think you have misinterpreted Bayhawk’s post. There was no discussion of striking or kicking AT people. What you have said is, indeed, a cardinal rule with any horse, ESPECIALLY a stallion.

In some situations don’t remember to “ask”, they just “do”. A good handler can feel the “do” coming in a particular enviroment and correct it before the thought turns into action…and without inhibiting shutting the horse down completely.

Not sure I’m describing this well, but I suspect that you both are on the same page, really. :slight_smile:

#82

[QUOTE=kookicat;5623713]
No dog in this fight but I think it’s time to let this argument die, or take it to another thread. This post is waaaay off topic now.

C’mon, folks. Arguing solves nothing. Why not just agree to disagree?[/QUOTE]

I will agree that Bayhawk is very rude and inaccurate, and not worth wasting any more time responding to.

Posts go off topic, that’s the nature of bulletin boards.

<shrug> As for you bayhawk I will post – even if you’re are nasty about it. What you say doesn’t mean anything. :yes:

#83

Please return the thread to the main topic and avoid the bickering.

Thanks,
Mod 1

#84

A Perfect Example!

here is a perfect example of a stallion who was obviously “spotted” as superior almost from Day One. His quality never wavered when evaluated by outside, knowledgable sources.

http://www.hanoverian-stallions-pape.de/baroncelli.html

He was a “fast track” Stallion Prospect :winkgrin:!

Of course, there were others who were NOT recognized early on – Rubinstein I, Grannus, Voltaire…the list is very long…so I think the answer to your question is “it depends.”:wink:

And of course, after all this, does the horse PRODUCE? That is the ultimate point of a breeding stallion, and you can’t tell that by presence.

I am told Rubinstein I himself was very close to being gelded quite young because he was so calm and “vanilla”.

Now that sort of disposition is a hallmark of the “R” dressage line and much valued by the riders.

So again - it depends; while “snort 'n blow” (as they call it in the Arab world, “brio” in the Paso World and “presence” in the WB world) is nice to see, it would never be the #1 critera.

#85

Kyzteke - for every European warmblood stallion you list as “not being recognized early on”, I can list 100 that were, and rightfully so.

Rubinstein was not “close to being gelded because he was so calm…”, he was on the small side and didn’t have many outstanding characteristics, i. e. very good gaits, flawless conformation.

Presence is not the only thing that is required for a stallion to be approved in Europe but it’s certainly the first thing you look for before you start evaluating the rest of the horse. Stallions with “presence” also supposedly are more prepotent and have better semen.

The other thing that for some reason doesn’t get mentioned enough is the fact that bloodlines should play a very large role in helping make the decision on whether or not to geld. They take some of the guessing game out of the whole equation because you know what those bloodlines have historically produced.

#86

[QUOTE=siegi b.;5624626]
Kyzteke - for every European warmblood stallion you list as “not being recognized early on”, I can list 100 that were, and rightfully so. [/QUOTE]

Perhaps… although it’s true that there are many very famous sires who were not looked upon with favor in the beginning. I imagine that late maturity had something to do with at least some of these cases.

And yet, he was winner of Optimum of Conformation Show Horses in Munster in 1990. http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/Stallions/Rubinstein/rubinstein.html

Here he is described as not being that much of a stand-out as a youngster, and having a quiet temperment: http://www.horse-gate.com/rubinstein/index_en.html

More info here: http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/rubinstein_i.htm

#87

As long as you are comfortable owning a stallion, I would wait and see. You can always geld him if your mare gives you a filly or he doesn’t develop as you hope.

Standing a stallion, paying for licensing/ approval, marketing and training is very expensive and I would be seeking guidance from your registry of choice.

Owning a performance stallion, boarded with a show barn that works regularly with stallions, isn’t much different than any other show horse. There are many stallions out there showing successfully who do not stand to the public.

As someone mentioned earlier, you can always remove them, but you can’t put them back…

#88

BIG “supposedly”. There is no reason this should be true…

A stallion should be a “package” deal - -with conformation, ability, pedigree etc. included. But I would never put presence as #1.

As for the predictability of quality – I’ll get dig out that article I read last month that said fully 1/3 of the Stallion Testing winners did not produce much…

It was written by the same guy who wrote the recent WB book – the Aussie guy.

Anyone have the link handy?

PS After reading the article on Rubinstein (an obit, it seems), I was struck by several lines “Rubinstein attracted attention not through pompous affected behaviour, nor through suspense filled paces, but rather by means of exceptionally high rideability and concentration.”

Perhaps this is why he did not shine in many folks’ eyes as a youngster…no presence…

#89

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5624955]
BIG “supposedly”. There is no reason this should be true…

A stallion should be a “package” deal - -with conformation, ability, pedigree etc. included. But I would never put presence as #1.

As for the predictability of quality – I’ll get dig out that article I read last month that said fully 1/3 of the Stallion Testing winners did not produce much…

It was written by the same guy who wrote the recent WB book – the Aussie guy.

Anyone have the link handy?

PS After reading the article on Rubinstein (an obit, it seems), I was struck by several lines “Rubinstein attracted attention not through pompous affected behaviour, nor through suspense filled paces, but rather by means of exceptionally high rideability and concentration.”

Perhaps this is why he did not shine in many folks’ eyes as a youngster…no presence…[/QUOTE]

And this is exactly why very few top young stallions have ever been produced in this country.

You are correct that the stallion must be the whole package but the selection must start with the presence and gender expression in the YOUNG stallion.

Rubenstein is an exception.

#90

I think a point that is getting missed here, and often is, is the process. With out saying, those chosen for stallion selection are athletic, correct, and have breed-able pedigrees. PERIOD. Presence will not trump the above, but they won’t even start to look if they don’t have it. So lets see which ones of those have presence. So, within this process outliers are still found and included into the breeding shed, but the process as a whole has produced better breeding stock then anywhere else in the world. It is the process we should follow, not the outliers. So in this process, PRESENCE is paramount.

To the OP question, I would ask myself if I would breed my mares to him over the others who are available to me. Is the breeding world in shortage of a stallion like this foal here? Will he likely get enough breedings to justify his difficult existence? Will I promote him? If I sell him how can I assure his proper rearing? Is he so perfect(as per others eyes) that it would be an awful shame to have lost his genetics? And most importantly to me, is his dam worthy of such distinction? I will suspect that the answer to that last question will answer yours(I don’t have the answer to that question in regards to your mare, just for the record).

Tim

#91

Very good post. :yes:

#92

Well…my opinion is worth what you all are paying for it;) but to me, of course top performers are the goals of most breeding programs. And for that…I do think presence is important (in both the stallion and mare). Most of the top level competitive horses that I’ve known did have a presence about them when they entered the ring…a confidence that they knew they were great.

But I think people do not know how to define presence.

Rearing, blowing, striking etc. is just a stallion acting like a stallion and means nothing for performance abilities and does not mean they have any presence. Presence is something different and harder to describe.

In the event world…we call it having the look of eagles. And they can have that presence while not being a wild and crazy;) They are the ones that walk in the ring and own it.

Can this “presence” be seen in a foal…I think it can. I do think that there can still be top performers without it…but more will have it.

ETA: I would like to add though, this country has produced a number of top stallions performers in different breeds…just not as many WB. So I’m not quite as sold on the WB method for picking a stallion is the best :wink:

#93

I think a horse with presence is one that turns your head and makes you look. It’s the one in the busy warm up that you can’t look away from.

#94

Sometimes I think we have to go with our guts on whether a horse is “all that” or not.

Of course, wait and see what the inspectors say. See how he develops as a two and three year old. You can always decide then.

As you know management will be an issue. Interestingly though I have been looking on line at some sale horses in Europe (to be a second pair of eyes for a friend) and I am really struck by how many young stallions I am seeing. Are they just a bit slower to geld?

If you think he is special and you geld early you may find yourself always thinking woulda should coulda.

#95

As posted by Kookicat:

“I think a horse with presence is one that turns your head and makes you look. It’s the one in the busy warm up that you can’t look away from.”

If a stallion does not give me goosebumps when I see him in the flesh, I have a hard time breeding to him. There are the exceptions but not so many.

A few goose bump examples of Dressage stallions in the flesh are: Argentinus, Licotus, Fidertanz, Fuerst Romancier, Fuerstenball, San Amour, Sir Donnerhall, Roi du Soleil, Hotline. All stallions I have bred to or have offspring by. Half of which I risked breeding to their first year because they had the bloodlines and that certain “it” factor. I have yet to be disappointed with these breeding decisions. So for me bloodlines and the “look at me” factor must both exist in the package.

I think if you look at you colt and have to ask whether he is a stallion prospect, then the answer is probably, no he is not. But if the colt is not a problem to raise, at least give him a chance. Especially if his bloodlines a very important to you.

And I have seen some jumper stallions in the flesh that made me want to throw all caution to the wind, and breed to them because they were so darn spectacular. But so far have refrained, though it is really, really tempting!

Of course there are the stallions that “out produce” themselves, but believe these stallions are the exception and not the rule.

#96

Exactly.

For me such a horse has a very expressive eye, is really concentrating on his job, and moves and jumps beautifully.

My TB mare didn’t have a big ego; I think being on the track for 4 years can be a little humbling. However, she still had presence; people who dismissed her at first glance as a little TB mare always ended up watching her and really liking her. She had a real flow to her movement and a big jump. It’s always fun to watch a really athletic horse.

Anyhow, as to presence, I think stolensilver’s colt has that. :yes:

#97

Do you look at Argentinus as a Dressage stallion? I have always thought of him as a jumper stallion.

Tim

#98

Two of my best Dressage mares have Argentinus as dam sire. Anytime I see Argentinus in a dressage pedigree, I take a second look. August der Starke, Augustin OLD, Ralfaca, Solos Landtinus…many examples of talented and sometimes dually talented horses with Argentinus very close.

Edited to add Pop Art (-:

#99

[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5625640]
Do you look at Argentinus as a Dressage stallion? I have always thought of him as a jumper stallion.

Tim[/QUOTE]
Dual purpose and one of my favorites. But many international caliber dressage horses have strong jumper influence in their pedigrees.

#100

Makes sense, its good to know.
Thanks.

Tim

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