And to add on to what Crosiadore said, Argentinus can sire dressage horses at a very high level. Auguste der Starke (Argentinus - Landadel) was the highest priced horse sold at Vecta (ever) until very, very recently. He then went on to compete in international Grand Prix with Victoria Max-Theuer. Augustin OLD, Auguste der Starke’s son, is currently ranked 6th in the world (last I checked) for FEI dressage, the 2nd highest placed stallion next to Totilas.
And the stallion Argo Conti Tyme (Evi Strasser)…
Thankyou to everyone for your constructive replies. Waiting and seeing appears to be a popular choice which is what I think I’ll do. I just wanted to reply to Croisadore Farms comment that if you have to ask if you have a stallion prospect then you probably don’t. Most people have never seen a future stallion at less than a week old. Spotting a future stallion at that age is clearly difficult as shown by the Holstein inspectors not giving premiums to 65% of the colt foals who eventually became stallions even though they give Premiums to over 50% of the foals they see. So, as foals, 65% of future Holstein stallions were judged to be in the lower half of the foal population when we expect stallions to be in the top 1%. If experienced inspectors can get it wrong it has to be hard to pick out a top quality horse at a very young age.
Which rather weakens the feedback I’ve had about this colt. His full brother is being kept entire by the people who bought him and the stud owner where he lives thinks this years colt is even better than last years. He is certainly taller and cheekier! I will wait for now and see how he develops. He does have an unusual pedigree which will probably make him unfashionable so as someone said he would have to prove himself through competition. Whether I go down that road I don’t know yet.
My 4 cents…
Don’t geld if the colt is learning to behave correctly, if you like the mare line and if he is athletic.
Regarding “Presence” I think it’s a very subjective element to decide if a horse deserve to be a breeding stallion. A very dominant horse will have “Presence” but is it a goal to breed to only dominant stallions ?
Don’t rely on outside advice to make “your” decision and specially don’t forget that “Inspectors” aren’t gods… they are famous for their errors also.
“Confidence” when entering the arena is a good indicator for obvious reasons, but this only apply to horses already competing. (not colts)
Bayhawk and RyTimMick are presenting correctly the Holsteiner model of approving a stallion, but other quality models exists, many roads leads to Rome.
SS,
I think wait and see. You’re smart enough to know later on if he needs gelded. You’re not barn blind. Yes we all are a bit but still you know. For me it’s easy, if it’s a colt it’s gelded. Even if my mare through an Olympic jumper, any siblings would still be gelded. If a few generations down the line jumpers were still coming from this line fair enough. But I would just assume my mare threw a freak and that would be the end of it.
I haven’t been posting much here lately but I’ve read this thread with interest. Some comments are bizarre. When I worked at the track more than have the barn would be entire horses. And as is the nature of that business pedigree and performance happen before shed time. These horses led a very un natural existence. In the stall 23 hours a day and when out surrounded by fillies and mares in close proximity. In all the years there were very very few handling or riding issues. We didn’t treat them like fire breathing dragons. They were just horses. I only saw one that absolutely had to be gelded for behavorial reasons. They tried everything to keep him going as an entire until the day he got the rider off and proceeded to savage her on the ground. His breeding didnt matter then. To be honest the colts were more predictable than the young fillies. I just think people’s attitudes towards stallions is somewhat strange. Ok you can say these weren’t stallions per say but an awful lot was asked of these horses in regards to dealing with life.
Anyway good luck SS,
Terri
I suspect many of us have different interpretations of the term “fire breathing dragons”.
Some comments here seem to indicate the poster believes a stallion should behave at all times around people as though he were a gelding, and if he doesn’t, he is a “fire breathing dragon” that should be gelded. Those of us who have been around stallions in northern Europe know that this is not at all the expectation there, esp. in highly charged circumstances such as a stallion licensing or presentation, or in a breeding situation. A stallion can be - and is allowed to be - on his toes, prancing around with arched neck, maybe calling out or snorting, maybe leaping into the air a bit, or even kicking out (often a somewhat slow, deliberate thrusting of a hind leg behind them and different from a quick, explosive, full force kick).
I would call stallions in these situations “fire breathing dragons” - it does not necessarily mean the stallion is out of control. As Bayhawk and others pointed out, the stallion handlers in Germany, Holland, etc., very much know the difference between typical “fire breathing stallion” antics and rank, dangerous behavior. Stallions are not punished for the first - they may be reminded at times if they get too close to “the line”, but as long as they do not cross the line, they are generally allowed to act out a little bit, esp. in a highly charged atmosphere.
As for Rubinstein I - my understanding is that he was initially turned down for licensing in Westphalia because he was smallish, had a somewhat weak hind leg, did not have a huge, powerful trot with tons of activity, and he was fairly quiet and mild-mannered, so all those things taken together made him easier to overlook amongst bigger, more magnetic and powerful stallions. Oldenburg was a bit more open minded, so they granted the stallion a license, and he of course went on to become a hugely successful show horse and sire. But Westphalia was not wrong in their initial assessment of him - many of those traits can still be seen in his descendants today. And as often pointed out, it was his mild-mannered and willing, generous temperament that MADE him a successful show horse and sire - and those qualities are very much prized in riding horses by amateurs and professionals alike, so his legacy continues even to this day.
[QUOTE=stolensilver;5626067]
Thankyou to everyone for your constructive replies. Waiting and seeing appears to be a popular choice which is what I think I’ll do. I just wanted to reply to Croisadore Farms comment that if you have to ask if you have a stallion prospect then you probably don’t. Most people have never seen a future stallion at less than a week old. Spotting a future stallion at that age is clearly difficult as shown by the Holstein inspectors not giving premiums to 65% of the colt foals who eventually became stallions even though they give Premiums to over 50% of the foals they see. So, as foals, 65% of future Holstein stallions were judged to be in the lower half of the foal population when we expect stallions to be in the top 1%. If experienced inspectors can get it wrong it has to be hard to pick out a top quality horse at a very young age.
Which rather weakens the feedback I’ve had about this colt. His full brother is being kept entire by the people who bought him and the stud owner where he lives thinks this years colt is even better than last years. He is certainly taller and cheekier! I will wait for now and see how he develops. He does have an unusual pedigree which will probably make him unfashionable so as someone said he would have to prove himself through competition. Whether I go down that road I don’t know yet.[/QUOTE]
One small correction to your analysis SS. It is true that 65% of approved Holsteiner Stallions were NOT premium foals. You are implying somehow that they missed something when in fact , the stallion foal is only being judged on type and movement , not if he is a stallion prospect.
They look at them for 2 minutes with their mother and say premium or not and assign them a score for type and a score for movement. It takes 15 points ( 7-8 or 8-7 ) to be a premium colt. I’m sure quite a few 7-7 's are contributing to the non premium % that ultimately got approved . Nearly impossible for any colt to go from suckling to approved stallion. I think the actual approval rate is less than 1% .
My point…not well stated was acting like a stallion to me doesn’t mean anything more than they are stallion. What everyone is trying to do is predict future performance…and really, future performance in their offspring. This is something I personally think is extremely difficult to do in a foal.
I also don’t expect a stallion to act like a gelding …and a very stallion stallion can still produce rideable offspring with good minds.
I do accept that “presence” is a factor to consider (just a factor) as it is an indicator of a future performer. BUT the best thing to do…is wait for this fancy little guy to grow up and see what he looks like and how he performs when he is older. You at least know what his family and relatives are like…and that is a more important factor to me then his presence;)
Not to be “argumentative”, but I really don’t think anyone is saying what you relayed in your first sentence. ANY horse with some blood can act like what you described, especially if a puffed-up appearance is what is prized.
I think the point of some of the posts is that a stallion needs an exceptional temperment, and that a lot of excellent geldings would be too much trouble as stallions.
So many of these threads end up being arguments about nothing.
In the end, the point of sporthorse breeding is supposed to be about producing sane, willing, athletic, sound, talented horses. Not winning in hand classes or getting a top score at an inspection.
[QUOTE=holsteinersrock;5617419]
According to some statistics I recently read 60+% of stallions approved in Germany, typically as 2 1/5 years or older, were not Premium Foals.
Done that, have that T-shirt.
Anna[/QUOTE]
If you can wait and see, do it.
I just saw the colt my mare had right before I bought her. He was an average colt, out of a mare who wouldn’t mature for another 2 years and was the ugliest of ducklings. The guy who bought him as a yearling was adamant that he be cut. At 3 this horse is absolutely GORGEOUS and getting better, and the guy is kicking himself.
I’m not a breeder nor do I play one on tv 
but we do have a barn with quite a few stallions. As long as they’re properly socialized, they behave just fine. Yes, we take precautions but the boys know what behavior is acceptable and what isn’t. They’re taken to shows and since pretty much all the shows here are day shows, that means they’re tied up by the ring near other stallions, mares, etc. It’s very rare there is a problem.
The attitude here tends to be wait & see. My friend (who is a breeder) just had a geldingpalooza with a bunch of his 3 & 4 year old colts. Nice colts, nice bloodlines and he had left them entire to see how they progressed. Based on how they performed, what they were showing under saddle, etc - very few got to keep their testicles. Fair enough - they will all make nice geldings.
If you have the ability to keep stallions (which most don’t in the US), why not wait & see?
Oh & side note - I ride a 9 year old stallion who was turned out as a breeding stallion for almost 2 years due to an injury. After his recovery, he has come back to the working world 
He is a PERFECT gentleman and doesn’t put a foot wrong in the ring - even when there are other mares or stallions in there with him. He knows his job and knows what is acceptable behavior when he’s working. Stallion doesn’t automatically mean fire-breathing dragon.
(And in my world - rearing, kicking out, etc is NEVER okay)
Spotting a future stallion at that age is clearly difficult as shown by the Holstein inspectors not giving premiums to 65% of the colt foals who eventually became stallions even though they give Premiums to over 50% of the foals they see.
Stolensilver, there is something else you need to understand about this. You said you are not familiar with foal inspections as they don’t do that in the UK. Depending on when the inspection is, the foal could be anywhere from 2 months to 7 months old - at least in the US. Sometimes they’re absolutely gorgeous when they’re foals and could very well turn into a gorgeous, approved stallion, but if you catch them in a “wonky” stage at the inspection, they’re not going to make Premium.
As an example - for a filly - and they, too can have presence - I had one last year by Consul out of my King of Diamonds mare who absolutely took my breath away - movement, conformation, type and presence - about 3 weeks before the inspection. On the day, she was butt high and could hardly get out of her own way. Good scores for conformation and type, eehhhh for movement. However, she’s going to WOW them at her presentation and Mare Performance Test.
That’s one of the general reasons everyone says to look at them at 3 days (hopefully unfolded and moving well) 3 months (usually ideal for inspections) and 3 years (when they’re starting to show you what they’re made of).
But, at the same time, they’re all individuals!
3 weeks (don’t know why anyone would make a judgement on a foal at 3 days), 3 months and 3 years.
If he is manageable you stick it out, if he isn’t you geld or you sell to someone who believes he is manageable and can go the distance to see if he is stallion material. Because then you have to see if he is “sire” material as well.
So at 3 weeks and 3 months you really need to believe that the horse is suitable or by the time 3 years are up you could have wasted a hell of a lot of time on the wrong “stallion”.
In the end, the point of sporthorse breeding is supposed to be about producing sane, willing, athletic, sound, talented horses. Not winning in hand classes or getting a top score at an inspection.
Agreed. But I don’t think anyone here is asserting otherwise. 
I will point out though that I think it would be hard for anyone to deny that the Germans have very much dominated horse sport and sport horse breeding for quite some time now. And their approach regarding inspections/approvals, etc., has been mimicked to a great extent by most (all?) of the other major European WB breeding organizations. If that approach was screwed up as much as some on here would like to believe, I don’t think we would see so many horses produced via that system at the top of the charts.
Although one could argue that their sucess is more that just the breeding approvals etc. It it the whole production and team support process they have…that honestly, a country like the US will not support.
There are other breeds here in the US that have consistently produced top athletic horses for their sport…quarter horses to mind (especially for reining and cutting). And that system is not at all similar to the German one. It is based purely on performance and market forces. The stallions that did well and produce performers get more mares (at MUCH higher stud fees than most WBs)…and the registry doesn’t inspect/approve.
My point is not that the German system is screwed up…it’s not. BUT it is just one system. There are other approaches to breeding just as valid…and in the end, it isn’t just about the breeding but also the training, management and riding that produce top sport horses.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;5626849]
Agreed. But I don’t think anyone here is asserting otherwise.[/QUOTE]
Ahem, yeah… they are. Or they are not keeping the disconnect between in-hand classes and inspections in mind. And even in the best of worlds, there is some disconnect. Inspections are useful but not the be-all and end-all. Inspectors are not 100% correct all of the time, and perhaps not even some of the time. I’m sure even they would admit that. An inspection or even a 30 or 70 day test is a short amount of time in a horse’s life.
Who says the Germans haven’t? Edited to add: Well, actually I do. The French and Belgians aren’t exactly schmucks at sporthorse breeding. The Selle Francais registry has been at or near the top forever, and the current top Belgian Warmbloods have a lot of Selle Francais lines in them. Not to mention that the bloodlines of Dutch Warmbloods are not all German.
Mindlessly copying the German system may not be the best thing for all breeders to do. In return, I will point out that one needs to keep the mare base in mind. If you have a mare base with a lot of blood, you have less need for a stallion with the kind of “presence” that is being talked about here: the fiery steed, etc.
In no way shape or form has any other system produced more GP Jumpers or GP Dressage horses then the one we all tend to follow now. QH world, where I originally started in has their own sports, and don’t let anyone else compete in them, it would be hard to say they have a system other then reg parents need only apply. They also have a breed that notorious for producing lameness in horses, or horses that only look pretty. I love QH’s so please don’t take this as a slight, but to compare the German system to that of the QH horse world is too far of a stretch for me. So lets look at these other systems, is it the TB system. Well not for sport, they are getting dominated by the WB’s in most sports. SO their system doesn’t work. How about the Arab system, which follows a similar one as the QH one, we don’t see them dominating any of the 3 Olympic disciplines.
It is the most successful system known to day for choosing breeding stock. For most part it is because other systems don’t choose breeding stock, their breeding members do.
Tim
My point was not comparing QH to WBs. My point was comparing different systems…both which produce to athletes for their purposes. FWIW, to compete in the top classes of cutting and reining they do not need to be reg Qh. And the development of the sports is no different than the development of modern SJ and dressage competition both of which are less than 125 years old.
ETA. I also don’t think other systems have been geared to produce Jumper or Dressage other than the WB registries. One can make strong arguments that those sports have been geared and directed to favor the WB. Certainly we have seen that development in eventing ;). I personally don’t think one system is better than the other. In the end, we all make the best decision we can based on our individual breeding goals. None of this answers the OPs question which is sort of the basic question for all breeding. Is this individual horse worth investing in and continuing in the breed pool. There will always be differing opinions. Op has to decide for themselves what is the answer.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;5618193]
You would not have bred to Stedinger, then, if this was your first requirement. Nor to probably 99% of German stallions. Stallion presence and expression is a huge determining factor for the licensing committees when selecting colts for licensing. They do not want “gelding-like” temperaments in their stallions.
And if you think they should be “perfect” all the time when in hand, there would be VERY few colts getting licensed at the big European licensings. Those boys can get pretty rowdy.[/QUOTE]
This. But I think terminology is a factor here.
Cruel. Mean. Nasty. Vicious. Attacks people. Hard-black-cold eyes. Curled lip. Kick, bite, flatten ears, bare teeth, snap it’s teeth at you.
And then there is: Presence. Energetic. Sharp. Alert. Excitable. PRESENCE. Look at ME Attitude. They have enormous energy and quite often difficulty containing themselves. Rears. Prances. Shouts at the ladies. Arches neck.
The former you DO NOT want in a stallion. This is POOR TEMPERAMENT.
The latter, very much so. It is Good temperament, but they have considerable energy and yes they can sometimes be very hard to contain. But through it all, their ears are forward. They are not baring their teeth at people. They want that mare, and can get frustrated when he’s not allowed to have her, but otherwise in his stall he’s handleable and you don’t fear for your life.
A real stallion who knows he is heading to the breeding shed wants to prance but will stop if you remind him this is not your allowable rule, but still show great enthusiasm for going forward. Because he wants to be Stallion. He wants to show off to the ladies and demands to be looked at. They have the energy of a nuclear missile because they’re a red-blooded healthy stallion who has sex on his mind. Outside of the breeding shed, he’s all boy. But, he’s friendly to people because he likes people. And he appreciates the grooming and other attention that he gets from people. He loves to go out riding and do his job under saddle whether that be eventing, dressage, jumping, cutting, roping, whatever his job is. A good stallion LOVES his job and LOVES his people and ADORES His Mares.
A BAD TEMPERAMENT is a horse that hates people, likes to bite, kick, charge at people, has to handled in the presence of 2 or more spotters. They’re mean, aggressive, violent and make no bones that if given half a chance they’re willing to tear you to shreds. That’s a bad temperament. These are the ones that should get gelded sooner rather than later.
The other stuff that I marked in blue is just being what a stallion is all about.
If you can’t handle their energy, then you are best not handling a stallion. And, it’s never wise to handle a stallion if you’re alone anyway. If you have a good stallion, but are unsure of proper handling, then it is best to send this stallion to a stallion station where he will be properly handled by people who really know how to do it right, and where he will get loads of exercise and/or turnout which I strongly believe that stallions MUST HAVE. And stallions need their sex drive satisfied or they can become frustrated, so make sure if you keep a stallion that he will be good and used as a stallion with a good-sized mare book or keep him collecting. If you have a stallion who is normally happy who is suddenly becoming unhappy, then the priority should be finding out why, and then fixing it before it becomes an escalating problem from which there is no return.
There’s a difference between MANNERS and TEMPERAMENT.
Manners goes hand-in-hand with social skills and this can be taught and indeed are best firmly instilled and taught when he is very young and proficiently and consistently maintained all through adulthood.
Temperament tends to be what they’re born with and goes hand in hand with personality and that’s pretty much set by the time they’re 3. Not much you can change with temperament. Gelding a poorly tempered stallion modifies the temperament only as much as reducing the hormone surge. Chances are, a truly bad tempered stallion will become a hormone-free poorly tempered gelding. The only thing that changes is the sex drive. The meanness doesn’t go away just because his nuts are missing.
If his entire personality seemingly changes just because he’s had his nuts removed, then he was most probably suffering the effect of the life of a stallion - rather on the lonely side where his only contact with horses is in the breeding shed and it just wasn’t enough social contact for him. Castrating him suddenly allowed him the opportunity to be with a social group and now he’s happy because he’s gets to be a normal horse. Another reason why if you don’t have the right facilities for a stallion it’s probably not a good idea to have one. You have to know how to socialize a stallion so they’re mentally stimulated, can communicate with horses, smell horses, see horses, see the goings on around the farm, have some appropriate, life-giving contact, but where safety is maintained. If you can’t provide that, geld him, or send him to a facility who can provide him his life-giving essentials.
To the Original Poster: If your boy has exceptional conformation, good and correct movement, nice feet, a good brain, can provide a pedigree that is of interest to a large number of mare owners, his TEMPERAMENT is of good quality, and he has well-above-average athleticisim, then he is stallion material. If he is merely average in any of those points, then he is gelding material. Then once he gets under saddle if he shows a willingness to learn and good competitiveness, then he will continue to be stallion material. He MUST be able to prove that he has the mental aptitude to be ridden even when pushed to his limits, and have a competitiveness and will to win in the showring. If he’s a jumper, then the drive to jump and clear everything without touching a rail. In dressage, the drive to perform and dance to his very bestest ability all the time. In roping, or cutting, the drive to do what it takes to succeed. They have a strong desire to do WELL in performance. And a strong Drive to LEARN more, more, more and to do well for his rider. THAT’s a stallion worthy of passing on his genetic material.
He will have MANNERS issues. This is normal and ongoing part of training, growing up, developing life skills, social skills and proper behavior.
Just differentiate between the two points.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;5626971]
Ahem, yeah… they are. Or they are not keeping the disconnect between in-hand classes and inspections in mind. And even in the best of worlds, there is some disconnect. Inspections are useful but not the be-all and end-all. Inspectors are not 100% correct all of the time, and perhaps not even some of the time. I’m sure even they would admit that. An inspection or even a 30 or 70 day test is a short amount of time in a horse’s life.
Who says the Germans haven’t? Edited to add: Well, actually I do. The French and Belgians aren’t exactly schmucks at sporthorse breeding. The Selle Francais registry has been at or near the top forever, and the current top Belgian Warmbloods have a lot of Selle Francais lines in them. Not to mention that the bloodlines of Dutch Warmbloods are not all German.
Mindlessly copying the German system may not be the best thing for all breeders to do. In return, I will point out that one needs to keep the mare base in mind. If you have a mare base with a lot of blood, you have less need for a stallion with the kind of “presence” that is being talked about here: the fiery steed, etc.[/QUOTE]
GAP…you are certainly entitled to your opinion but that opinion is not an educated one. I will repeat your own resume admission that you have bred one horse and you worked for some farm somewhere.
You last sentence shows your extreme lack of knowledge. " If you have a mare base with alot of blood , you have less need for a stallion with presence "
You don’t understand presence GAP . It has nothing to do with “blood” . EVERY mare base needs stallions with presence…EVERY mare base.
