How do you decide if a colt is a stallion prospect? Update post 143

[RyTimMick]

@rodawn;5627360

Temperament tends to be what they’re born with and goes hand in hand with personality and that’s pretty much set by the time they’re 3. Not much you can change with temperament. Gelding a poorly tempered stallion modifies the temperament only as much as reducing the hormone surge. Chances are, a truly bad tempered stallion will become a hormone-free poorly tempered gelding. .

I agree with much of what you described, but I am not so sure about the above quote. I personally have gelded a vampire of a horse, who was a gem before the hormones, and a gem afterwards. He was barely capable of maintaining composure while under the influence. And as others have mentioned, some colts were gelded so that they could focus on competition. We know for a fact some don’t need to be. So in the end they are all individuals that demand individual attention and consideration. However, many factors go into this decision before we get the opportunity to evaluate their ability to handle the drug of testosterone.

Tim

[sylvan_farm]

Rodawn, yours is one of the best descriptions of stallion behavior, temperament and manners I have read, excellent. Very observant and educational. I hope all prospective stallion owners read it and take it to heart.

[Kyzteke]

This has been a really interesting thread – lots of different ways to look at things.

At first I was alittle taken aback by the fact that “presence” came up so often as a criteria – then I realized that these are dressage/jumping horses. Ok – dressage I could see the importance of “presence”, but not so much with jumping. That still would give me pause…

But as I filtered everything through the eyes of a European sporthorse breeder, it makes more sense. This IS a sporthorse forum, after all, although there are plenty of posters who breed outside the narrow definition of “sporthorse = WB for dressage/jumping”.

It seems that “stallion selection”, which is molded for many people on this board by a certain process, a certain step-by-step evaluation, but only a small amount of the stallions in this world are chosen by this method.

So it IS specific to a great degree for just these animals and this “world.”

This is the world SS comes from and her foal’s pedigree is solidly in this realm, but it got me thinking about how the majority of breeding stallions are chosen. And that is performance.

Because I know that when, say – a racehorse breeder – picks a stallion prospect, they pick one that could run really fast. Bonus is staying sound. Double bonus is one that won’t try to kill you. But “presence” will not be high on the list. It may happen later, if the stallion is famous. But it’s performance that seals the deal.

I understand liking “the look” of a colt, but I wouldn’t turn down an hardworking, good-minded, well-conformed boy with a solid pedigree (these are all basics, right?) just because he didn’t light up a room.

The fact that, say, he’d raced 30 times and retired sound would catch my interest far more…:winkgrin:

But then we are talking different disciplines, different schools of thought.

Like the Akhal Teke breeders in Turkmenistan – they want their stallions to walk around on their hind legs all the time!! They really encourage it…

Very interesting thread. Wish you well SS! I mean, you obviously have to wait – can’t geld a 2 week old colt (or not the most popular time) but it will be interesting watching you take the journey.

You say inspections aren’t big in your neck of the world. So what sort of “outside eyes” are available to you/for you?

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5629696]
This has been a really interesting thread – lots of different ways to look at things.

At first I was alittle taken aback by the fact that “presence” came up so often as a criteria – then I realized that these are dressage/jumping horses. Ok – dressage I could see the importance of “presence”, but not so much with jumping. That still would give me pause…

But as I filtered everything through the eyes of a European sporthorse breeder, it makes more sense. This IS a sporthorse forum, after all, although there are plenty of posters who breed outside the narrow definition of “sporthorse = WB for dressage/jumping”.

It seems that “stallion selection”, which is molded for many people on this board by a certain process, a certain step-by-step evaluation, but only a small amount of the stallions in this world are chosen by this method.

So it IS specific to a great degree for just these animals and this “world.”

This is the world SS comes from and her foal’s pedigree is solidly in this realm, but it got me thinking about how the majority of breeding stallions are chosen. And that is performance.

Because I know that when, say – a racehorse breeder – picks a stallion prospect, they pick one that could run really fast. Bonus is staying sound. Double bonus is one that won’t try to kill you. But “presence” will not be high on the list. It may happen later, if the stallion is famous. But it’s performance that seals the deal.

I understand liking “the look” of a colt, but I wouldn’t turn down an hardworking, good-minded, well-conformed boy with a solid pedigree (these are all basics, right?) just because he didn’t light up a room.

The fact that, say, he’d raced 30 times and retired sound would catch my interest far more…:winkgrin:

But then we are talking different disciplines, different schools of thought.

Like the Akhal Teke breeders in Turkmenistan – they want their stallions to walk around on their hind legs all the time!! They really encourage it…

Very interesting thread. Wish you well SS! I mean, you obviously have to wait – can’t geld a 2 week old colt (or not the most popular time) but it will be interesting watching you take the journey.

You say inspections aren’t big in your neck of the world. So what sort of “outside eyes” are available to you/for you?[/QUOTE]

You missing one important thing here. In the Holsteiner breed , we look at roughly 500 stallion prospects every year. Out of the 500 , 100 are invited to come to the approvals. Out of this 100 , only 25 or so will be ultimately approved. These initial 500 are TWO YEARS OLD !

There are no " hardworking , good minded " undersaddle stallions yet. Presence is the starting point with these 2 year old stallions.

[TwinGates]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5618175]
And this is exactly why this country doesn’t raise good stallions. You want a stallion to have a gelding like temperment ? Why have a stallion then ?

Where I come from , we cut those. It’s one of the first things I look to when selecting a stallion. Does he have presence ? I want him to be very expressive. I want to know I’m looking at a stallion when I look at him.

Proper stallion behaviour is in the training. He will learn very quickly when it’s time to show or if it’s time to breed.[/QUOTE]

This!

[grayarabpony]

“You want a stallion to have a gelding like temperment ? Why have a stallion then ?”

If a stallion gets proper socialization he will act like a gelding more often than not. As far as to the second question, well, let me think… let me think – oh yeah, a stallion can pass on his genes!

[andy.smaga]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5630078]
You missing one important thing here. In the Holsteiner breed , we look at roughly 500 stallion prospects every year. Out of the 500 , 100 are invited to come to the approvals. Out of this 100 , only 25 or so will be ultimately approved. These initial 500 are TWO YEARS OLD !

There are no " hardworking , good minded " undersaddle stallions yet. Presence is the starting point with these 2 year old stallions.[/QUOTE]
Bayhawk, this is what I’m questioning, all WB Studbooks want to approve stallions at 2 1/2 year old (I understand the advantage of testing stallions ASAP) but this system allows a very high percentage of low quality animals that fails in the performance area and in the breeding shed.

If SB’s where looking to approve stallions at age 6, then the garbage can would be less filled with useless animals and maybe “Presence” will be lower on the list.

I know I will not change the world, and fortunately some famous breeders will not jump on the last winner of a Korung to breed their mares.

Remember I talk only Jumpers, I have no knowledge of Dressage horses.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;5630439]
Bayhawk, this is what I’m questioning, all WB Studbooks want to approve stallions at 2 1/2 year old (I understand the advantage of testing stallions ASAP) but this system allows a very high percentage of low quality animals that fails in the performance area and in the breeding shed.

If SB’s where looking to approve stallions at age 6, then the garbage can would be less filled with useless animals and maybe “Presence” will be lower on the list.

I know I will not change the world, and fortunately some famous breeders will not jump on the last winner of a Korung to breed their mares.

Remember I talk only Jumpers, I have no knowledge of Dressage horses.[/QUOTE]

Yes Andy. There are certainly advantages to approve them later but look at all the breeding years lost inbetween. For the Holsteiner breed…this works. Let them breed after their stallion tests and then let their production decide. The breeders QUICKLY figure out which stallions are producing the best foals.

I am one of those breeders that don’t get star struck over the champion stallions. For example , I knew the moment that Diarado was the champion , that I wouldn’t use him right away. I know his motherline and so far his production has been very consistent with my assumption. Will Diarado wind up making some good horses ? I’m know he will , but his initial production was forecast.

You can count on the breeders to dispose of the “garbage”.

For me…I don’t care if the stallion is 2 , 6 or 10 years old. I want him to have presence and lots of it. There are very few successful breeding stallions in the world that don’t.

[andy.smaga]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5630834]
Yes Andy. There are certainly advantages to approve them later but look at all the breeding years lost inbetween. .

I am one of those breeders that don’t get star struck over the champion stallions.

You can count on the breeders to dispose of the “garbage”.

For me…I don’t care if the stallion is 2 , 6 or 10 years old. I want him to have presence and lots of it. There are very few successful breeding stallions in the world that don’t.[/QUOTE]
We are in agreement.

I just want to point at the fact that Presence is depending on situation, for example if a stallion is quietly resting in his stall, he will not look different from a gelding, let a mare in heat pass by his stall and he will instantly change his attitude and display a lot of “Presence” his eyes will lit, his neck will arch and so on; You will see the same difference with a performance stallion, when working on the flat or training at home he will be no different from a gelding, but when he enters the arena the scenario change: his gaits will be more brilliant, he will look bigger by a couple of inches, he will seem to own the place and display lots of “Presence”.

I think that Presence is linked to Domination, a real stallion is a dominant animal, and he wants other horses (people) to know about it.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;5631572]
We are in agreement.

I just want to point at the fact that Presence is depending on situation, for example if a stallion is quietly resting in his stall, he will not look different from a gelding, let a mare in heat pass by his stall and he will instantly change his attitude and display a lot of “Presence” his eyes will lit, his neck will arch and so on; You will see the same difference with a performance stallion, when working on the flat or training at home he will be no different from a gelding, but when he enters the arena the scenario change: his gaits will be more brilliant, he will look bigger by a couple of inches, he will seem to own the place and display lots of “Presence”.

I think that Presence is linked to Domination, a real stallion is a dominant animal, and he wants other horses (people) to know about it.[/QUOTE]

Exactly and I want that passed on to my foals. I not only believe presence is linked to domination , I know it is also linked to intelligence.

I have had many colts born . I have left one a stallion . He got approved. There was something very special about him from the moment he was born.

I have two colts born this year. It is very clear one of them has had it from the moment he was born also. I will leave him a stallion and see if the rest of the package is there as well. If not , I have no problem cutting them.

[RyTimMick]

Andy,

To your point in waiting till they are six to approve creates a problem. By the time a stallion is six, he would have had 2 foal crops and one on the way. You can learn more from those three years then you would letting him grow up. Time is of the essense, and the best and only way to determine good stallions, or mares for that matter is to breed them and see what you get. The sooner you can get to doing that, the better.

Tim

[Sheila_A]

I have a somewhat related question and that is at what age do you x-ray a stallion prospect? Obviously if there are problems with the x-rays that would prevent a stallion from getting licensed that may also be a reason to geld. I normally x-ray at 3 before starting under saddle but it seems maybe with an ungelded colt that should happen a little earlier.

[andy.smaga]

[QUOTE=RyTimMick;5631883]
Andy,

To your point in waiting till they are six to approve creates a problem. By the time a stallion is six, he would have had 2 foal crops and one on the way. You can learn more from those three years then you would letting him grow up. Time is of the essense, and the best and only way to determine good stallions, or mares for that matter is to breed them and see what you get. The sooner you can get to doing that, the better.

Tim[/QUOTE]

I agree, but some stallions that didn’t make it at 2y/o could be serious candidates at 6y/o, and in this case they will only be allowed to breed when reaching the top of the sport (most SB’s behave this way and will wait until the stallion reaches the top of the sport to reconsider him), and that is at 10y/o (time is again essential…)
I imagine that the best system need to allow approval of stallions at any year of age and don’t put 99% of the sunlight’s on the 2y/o babies that are way to young to receive a meaningful evaluation.

Bayhawk, linking domination to intelligence is too much for me;)

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;5632535]
I agree, but some stallions that didn’t make it at 2y/o could be serious candidates at 6y/o, and in this case they will only be allowed to breed when reaching the top of the sport (most SB’s behave this way and will wait until the stallion reaches the top of the sport to reconsider him), and that is at 10y/o (time is again essential…)
I imagine that the best system need to allow approval of stallions at any year of age and don’t put 99% of the sunlight’s on the 2y/o babies that are way to young to receive a meaningful evaluation.

Bayhawk, linking domination to intelligence is too much for me;)[/QUOTE]

I didn’t link domination with intelligence. I linked presence with intelligence.

It is known that the stallion is the smartest horse in the herd just as it’s known that the mare is the boss of the herd.

It has been my personal experience over the years , that the more presence they have , the smarter they seem to be.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Sheila A;5632387]
I have a somewhat related question and that is at what age do you x-ray a stallion prospect? Obviously if there are problems with the x-rays that would prevent a stallion from getting licensed that may also be a reason to geld. I normally x-ray at 3 before starting under saddle but it seems maybe with an ungelded colt that should happen a little earlier.[/QUOTE]

I guess it depends at what age you are going to present him. 3 would be the latest I would x-ray . I would probably do it at 2 1/2 so I knew how to proceed.

[Donella]

Stallions need to be the whole package and at two years old you don’t have performance to go on, so what then do you look at? Do you think good movement/jump is enough? NO WAY. A stallion MUST have presence (essentially good sex type), they need to stand out, they need to look the part just standing there. I don’t know if this is representative of all the registries (I would assume so) but when I went to watch the Hano licencing a few years ago I can honestly say that all of the young stallions had presence…some more than others, but none were lacking. And presence has nothing to do with how the horse moves, how he jumps (as one poster here said)…it’s a quality that you notice in an instant and it is there at a young age. At the same time, I don’t really recall seeing a low quality animal with alot of presence…

[bloomingtonfarm]

[QUOTE=Sheila A;5632387]
I have a somewhat related question and that is at what age do you x-ray a stallion prospect? Obviously if there are problems with the x-rays that would prevent a stallion from getting licensed that may also be a reason to geld. I normally x-ray at 3 before starting under saddle but it seems maybe with an ungelded colt that should happen a little earlier.[/QUOTE]

It would depend of the Registry you want your stallion to be in. For the KWPN it is any time after September 1st of the stallion’s two-year-old year.

[bloomingtonfarm]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5617673]
Stats compiled by Dr. Nissen , breeding director of the Holsteiner Verband. I think it was 65% of all approved Holsteiner stallions were NOT premium foals. His statement ran in Pferd & Sport magazine.[/QUOTE]

Which is not surprising at all.

So 35% of the approved stallions were First Premium??? I find this pretty good!

I don’t know much about the Holsteiner but they are mostly jumpers and in Holland very few breeders go to the foal inspection. It is more a matter of marketing …but the one who don’t, won’t miss the opportunity to present their nice stallion prospect as a 3 years old. This is where it’s all about.

And there is huge difference in the requirement of being First Premium and Approved stallion. As a foal they will class upon the conformation and movement. You could bring a super foal to the keuring with all the chance to get a First Premium. But the same foal as a three years old wouldn’t stand a chance to be approved if;
his mare line is not good enough;
if his jumping technique is not superior ;
if he is not develop enough…
if he has bad x-rays…
and so on and on.

And he might have been as stunning as he was as a colt but as a jumping horse it might not make the cut.

I would say the most important thing to stand a chance to be approved in Holland is not as much presence and a good enough conformation but mostly good bloodline and superior talent.

Now I am only talking about the jumping division. As a dressage horse it is different as the presence and charisma seemed to take a lot of importance. Not in jumping.

[Pommederue]

@andy.smaga;5630439

Bayhawk, this is what I’m questioning, all WB Studbooks want to approve stallions at 2 1/2 year old (I understand the advantage of testing stallions ASAP) but this system allows a very high percentage of low quality animals that fails in the performance area and in the breeding shed.

If SB’s where looking to approve stallions at age 6, then the garbage can would be less filled with useless animals and maybe “Presence” will be lower on the list.

I know I will not change the world, and fortunately some famous breeders will not jump on the last winner of a Korung to breed their mares.

Remember I talk only Jumpers, I have no knowledge of Dressage horses.

I totally agree with this! And I am a dressage rider.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Donella;5634164]
And presence has nothing to do with how the horse moves, how he jumps (as one poster here said)…it’s a quality that you notice in an instant and it is there at a young age. At the same time, I don’t really recall seeing a low quality animal with alot of presence.…[/QUOTE]

There are many non-Olympian horses (although I wouldn’t call them low quality) with a lot of character and presence. I can think of several trickster geldings with a lot of presence. They could have gone into show business! My own gelding has been described as having enough personality for 5 horses.

I want a horse to be keen about its work and relate well to people, but I think that the grace and power of the horse has a lot to do with its presence as well. If presence is just “look at me” without seeing the horse actually do anything, then a willing temperment, athletic ability, conformation and family should be more important than presence in choosing a stallion prospect.