How do you decide if a colt is a stallion prospect? Update post 143

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;5636058]
There are many non-Olympian horses (although I wouldn’t call them low quality) with a lot of character and presence. I can think of several trickster geldings with a lot of presence. They could have gone into show business! My own gelding has been described as having enough personality for 5 horses.

I want a horse to be keen about its work and relate well to people, but I think that the grace and power of the horse has a lot to do with its presence as well. If presence is just “look at me” without seeing the horse actually do anything, then a willing temperment, athletic ability, conformation and family should be more important than presence in choosing a stallion prospect.[/QUOTE]

Again , your written word display’s your inexperience regarding the equine.

It has been stated over and over here that presence is not just “look at me” as you say. “Grace and power” as you say , have nothing to do with presence and everything to do with athleticism.

Friendly piece of advice for you GAP. Start visiting breeders , visit inspections , visit stallion approvals…put yourself in the middle of horses more so you can gain some more knowledge.

[Kyzteke]

@Donella;5634164

Stallions need to be the whole package and at two years old you don’t have performance to go on, so what then do you look at?

Again, this system is what is used to selecting a stallion in the European WB world, but it is one of the only places it IS used.

There are stallions in every breed, and in almost all of them selection is based on pedigree and performance. Obviously a stunning example of a breed’s “standard” (for breeds that have one) is a great start, along with a strong pedigree and correct conformation. And if you are involved in a breed where halter classes are big, lots of time this is enough, along with the ability to sire winning halter horses. A top stallion may never get ridden.

But if you are a breeder/rider of performance horses, a stallion must perform. I guarantee you “presence” is NOT the first thing a QH breeder who wants successful reiners or cutters looks at when picking a stallion. He looks at pedigree, then he looks at how much $$ that stallion has won. Ditto for TB racehorse breeders.

So you guys are talking about a very little world in the global scheme of things. I think it would be interesting to see what sort of horses would be produced if folks waited till the stallion himself performed.

Also the WB model of stallion testing DOES miss quite afew prospects, and it is (apparently) pretty tough to fly in the face of this system, but I’m not sure the “performance” route is any better.

After all, as some posters have mentioned, the job of a stallion is to produce, not perform.

Does one have anything to do with the other? People been arguing that one for centuries…

And I’m sure for centuries breeders have been leaning towards breeding to the striking, good-looking, well-performing male because…well, doesn’t that just make sense?

Nobody wants to breed to the lazy, mal-formed, slow, stupid thing in the corner of the pasture why would they?

But we have seen plenty of cases of high-performance geldings…you always wonder how they would have produced…

In the wild it would be simple – the strongest, most aggressive. And I’m sure presence DOES play a part in the success of a wild stallion…

[andy.smaga]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5637604]

But we have seen plenty of cases of high-performance geldings…you always wonder how they would have produced…[/QUOTE]
Today you can find out how those exceptional geldings would have produced, cause we know how to clone them
Calvaro V, ET, Gem Twist, etc…
Don’t start the train wreck I know most breeders don’t like clones.

[alexandra]

[QUOTE=Sheila A;5632387]
I have a somewhat related question and that is at what age do you x-ray a stallion prospect? Obviously if there are problems with the x-rays that would prevent a stallion from getting licensed that may also be a reason to geld. I normally x-ray at 3 before starting under saddle but it seems maybe with an ungelded colt that should happen a little earlier.[/QUOTE]
If I would hava a stallion prospect, and would have to present it to the german WB associations in the at the moment still given situation of licensing autumn 2yo, I would x-ray him in spring of 2yo. By knowing the outcome I have the option to react in any way I need to react. If the horse sits full of things unwanted for a stallion I would save him the time and me my money of stallion pre-selection preparation. I may geld him or not if he is eays to handle.
Raising a colt as stallion process has along the lines at lot of steps/points of taking decisions. X-raying is one of them.

[stolensilver]

A little update

I’ve received a lovely letter from Silvermoon’s stud in Germany saying

“Once again congratulations on that very nice foal by Silvermoon. I like him very much! He is a strong colt with an expressive head and - as far as I could see that on the pictures - seems to be of a very good conformation. Maybe another stallion prospect?!”

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh71/pirie/DSC00268.jpg
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh71/pirie/DSC00242.jpg

I’m really chuffed!

So far everyone who has seen him or his photos has advised keeping him entire, for now at least. A stallion is the last thing I was thinking of having when I planned on keeping my mare’s line going but perhaps things happen for a reason?

My next question is hypothetical, it assumes he is good enough and of the right temperament to be a stallion and that he passes his grading. The question is that although I bred this colt to do dressage and both his sire and dam have been successful dressage horses to PSG and beyond because the mare is ID x TB no dressage breeders in the UK are going to look twice at him. I know that for certain and while it upsets me I can’t change people’s opinions singlehandedly. So its better if I accept it. Where he may be of interest is as an eventing sire. His dam has a big gallop and a big jump (1m60+) and Silvermoon’s sire Kostolany showjumped to 1m50 so marketing him as an eventing/all rounder is based on the likely ability that he possesses.

My question is that I don’t really want to have him trained to event. IMO eventing is very hard on a horse. I want to have him trained for dressage which is the reason I bred him in the first place. If he competed in dressage but was able to show a big jump at stallion shows would that make you interested in him if you were an event breeder?

Also if I’m going to do this properly I’m going to have to find a couple of mares to breed him to when he’s 2 aren’t I? Should I choose mares to produce offspring for his most likely market, eventing? Or should I choose a dressage-bred broodmare to show his versatility?

[alexandra]

Eventer breeders are a very special and strange species. I would doubt that they would look at a stallion that does dressage and does occasionally a jump at a stallion show. And especially not if there is no Show record in jumper disciplines in the close ancestors. Something like his sire can do 1,50m will not get any eventer going.
What they need is jumping ability As this is 2/3 of a 3 day event. Their dressage is not so difficult that not any normal horse can be trained to it.

Even in Germany that seems to be at the moment THE country where to find the prospects for upper level 3 day there is not really a stallion that one could call 3 day sire (maybe the exception is Mighty Magic, but he got also other mares with no intention to breed an eventer).

And why do you think you need to do test breedings when he is 2 ?

I guess there is one decision for you ahead: if you want to do the stallion route and this is a dressage oriented horse, you may need to take the decision to have him evaluated by one or the other people who do stallion rearing for the trakehner licensing in Germany and see what they think as chances. And than you may want to go the Trakehner licensing and get him over in preparation for that.
And when you have gotten him licensed you will need to decide whether you want him producing. And if so and you think England is not your market, than the horse needs to be brought to the possible market which in that case is either close Germany, Denmark or such or the US.
If you want to do the english licensing, you may not be ending up getting enough mares for the reasons you stated. And you would not even be able to send out semen e.g. to Germany because you english licensing will most likely not be accepted over here…

[Equilibrium]

Forgive my stupidity, but as a young horse could you not maybe do both Dressage and SJ and see which he has the most affinity for? I think I’d like to do something like that if I had a horse bred similarly. Most event stallions don’t event but that’s changing a little. I don’t think pure jumper or pure dressage is something people look for when breeding for eventing.

Also if your British Young Event horse league is anything like our Irish one, that is something to consider at 4 before making a career decision. Lovely inviting derby type courses all with knockable fences. Very basic dressage tests. I actually think they are quite good for a nice foundation on a young horse. Some people with pointers used to do those classes for a structured education before going into racing. So maybe that’s something to think about without him actually becoming an eventer.

As far as the breeding thing, I would look for the best qualified mares you can find. With a page so to speak. JMHO though.

Terri

[stolensilver]

Alexandra the problem is he isn’t eligible for Trakehner grading. His dam is Irish Draught x Thoroughbred. He is eligible for SHB(GB) or AES and of those two I’ll take him down the AES route as they are in the top 10 studbooks in both eventing and showjumping at the moment.

If he is accepted AES he can also be (I think) recognised KWPN. I don’t know whether any of the German studbooks would take a stallion with 25% Irish Draught blood though. Did they ever accept Cruising? He’s probably the Irish stallion with the highest number of studbook acceptances.

Regarding test breeding at 2 that was mentioned in a thread on here a few months ago where people were debating the pros and cons of breeding a colt early. The pros outweighed the cons to me. It gives you an idea of what he will produce, allows you to show potential customers the stock he produces and lets you get his offspring out competing early on in his stallion career.

It does sound as if he will have to event if he’s going to have any chance of getting any mares. I guess the decision is do I want to do that? His full brother was bought by people who already have an Advanced eventer and they are running the full brother on as a stallion. They are experienced people who think this cross shows potential to event.

There is a lot to think about!

[stolensilver]

Terri that’s a good idea. Letting him have a broad education and see which he prefers.

We do have young event horse classes over here. I’ve got him entered for the Futurity. If he does well in that he automatically goes to the championship of the young event horse breeding class. He can do the Futurity until he is 3 then the ridden classes start from age 4-6.

I wanted him to do dressage because I don’t jump any more. If he’s going to event he will have to be produced by someone else which of course is expensive. Hmmm. As I said, lots to think about.

If he does show enough promise to follow this dream I will look for the best mares I can find. A retired Advanced eventer or National Hunt mare would be perfect. Finding one might be a bit more tricky. :lol:

[alexandra]

Am I glad that I have “just” mares and a rider at hand that can do all. Dressage, showjumping and eventing. And she does that kind of work with all the horses she has unless the owner wants to do only one route.
For me it is easy. If I do not sell a mare as foal because I want to raise them, they all go the same route: breaking in doing MPT, doing shows being bred at 3 or 4 and than look at the options.

I did not know that he was not purebred Trakehner.

[Graymaresrule]

LOL, I have the same problem with Beeza’s offspring. If I bred her to a Trak they might be accepted into the lowest book with a lot of effort on my part because of the Conn dam. Because of her Trak sire they are only accepted IDSH, litle to no hope of getting them graded AID if they opened the Appendix book.

And unfortunately Beeza is to well known in the ID community to list her breeding as UNK

While they are few and far between in NA we do have some RID stallions who do very well in dressage. O’Leary’s Irish Diamond (dec) Steeped in Luck and KEC Double Diamond come to mind and I suspect Bridon Belfrey will go far.

Supposedly Steeped in Luck had a full book last year, bred to mostly WB mares.

[Waterwitch]

@carolprudm;5697602

While they are few and far between in NA we do have some RID stallions who do very well in dressage. O’Leary’s Irish Diamond (dec) Steeped in Luck and KEC Double Diamond come to mind

You can add Lionwood Kinsale’s Lad to that list. He is just began competing 4th level at recognized shows (scores in the mid-60’s so far), and did his first PSG at a schooling show last week.

[TSHEventing]

Speaking from personal experience (and my own experience as an eventer breeding eventers) I’d never use a stallion for an event sire that hadn’t A) evented himself to a reasonably high level (Advanced, though maybe not necessarily CCI***) or B) had a high percentage of upper level offspring.

When we have access in the US to Welton Stallions, Salute the Truth, Aberjack for a limited time, Catherston Dazzler, Fleetwater Opposition, and many more that have both of these qualities, there is no competition and I doubt, unless you have an exceptionally reasonable LFG stud fee (like, under $500) that he would be considered.

As someone mentioned, eventers are a tricky and strange breed

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I think some eventers would consider him…but he would need to have produced some nice eventer offspring.

It is a tough market for stallions. With the ease of breeding with frozen…it is so competitive out there.

[Gry2Yng]

As an eventer, I find it very easy to take the culls off the other disciplines.

That being said, I don’t think eventing is near as hard on a horse as those from other disciplines believe. I have had young horses in dressage, hunter and eventing tracks. The hunters jump MUCH more than the eventers. Yes, the ground can be hard and uneven, but generally there is much less schooling and warm up and prep. I think dressage is much harder mentally on a young prospect, they are pushed quickly for second level work, whereas an event prospect can hang out at first level for some time. Eventing keeps a young horse from being crammed into a “label”, which reduces his monotony. Each week he does a bit of everything, which can be important for a stallion.

Don’t write off eventing as being too hard on a young horse (especially a talented one) without further investigation. A horse that is capable of the upper/FEI levels in any one discipline will find the eventing program quite easy through Novice/prelim (EUR/USA).

FWIW, generalizing here. I love hunters, jumpers, dressage and eventing, tho my heart is in eventing.

[Graymaresrule]

@Waterwitch;5700869

You can add Lionwood Kinsale’s Lad to that list. He is just began competing 4th level at recognized shows (scores in the mid-60’s so far), and did his first PSG at a schooling show last week.

Considering how few RID stallions we have in NA four stallions at that level is impressive.

[stolensilver]

Possibly aiming this colt at eventing isn’t as random (or a “cull”) as it sounds.

Silvermoon, his sire, has had very few offspring but one of them is an Advanced eventer in Denmark.
His half brother Gribaldi was very rarely put to jumping mares but he is the sire of Wish Upon a Star, a young Advanced eventing stallion with a superb competition record.

This colt’s older full brother has been bought by eventers who already have an Advanced eventer and who are running him on as a stallion.

The colt’s dam bloodhounded for several years over the most fierce country in the UK. She had bottomless stamina and a huge, bold jump clearing 5’6" x 10’ wide as a 4yo! A friend who evented to European level used to take her out with me (we’d swap horses at half time) and he called her a Rolls Royce across country. She retired sound at 16 years old.

The damsire Topstar is little know but sired several Advanced eventers and was well thought of by people such as Chris Bartle. Topstar also sired an international showjumper.

The dam’s dam evented to Novice level before retiring sound to stud. Her full sister was national broodmare champion.

So although I bred him for dressage he has got excellent credentials to be a good event horse.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I remembered you mentioned his brother was with eventers…and honestly…just looking at his pictures I thought fancy little eventer;)

I don’t think you need to risk a stallion to the highest levels of eventing to have him be desirable as an event sire.

With his pedigree, if he is a nice type and goes up to the 2* level (and does it easily)…and then changes focus to something else, that is enough for me to take a look at him with the right mare for an eventer. But the biggest seller is what he produces.

[Graymaresrule]

@TSHEventing;5704201

Speaking from personal experience (and my own experience as an eventer breeding eventers) I’d never use a stallion for an event sire that hadn’t A) evented himself to a reasonably high level (Advanced, though maybe not necessarily CCI***) or B) had a high percentage of upper level offspring.

When we have access in the US to Welton Stallions, Salute the Truth, Aberjack for a limited time, Catherston Dazzler, Fleetwater Opposition, and many more that have both of these qualities, there is no competition and I doubt, unless you have an exceptionally reasonable LFG stud fee (like, under $500) that he would be considered.

As someone mentioned, eventers are a tricky and strange breed

StolenSilver is in the UK. Luckily IDX’s are more valued there than they seem to be over here

[Gry2Yng]

FWIW, StolenSilver - didn’t mean yours was a cull. Just that I have found some nice ones that the other disciplines didn’t value.