How do you determine a Puppy Mill?

[QUOTE=S1969;6518982]
Not to mention that some of their “stud dogs” aren’t even two yet…so their OFA scores would be preliminary only…if they had had them done. But it says “Hips and elbows per Dr. Wallace OFA grade good and Normal”…meaning some vet supposedly is giving his own OFA score to the dogs…not OFA itself. Hmmmm…

FYI, (not that this makes them a good breeder), but most of their dogs don’t live with them.

ETA: the spelling on her website is atrocious![/QUOTE]

Even worse. I find it hard to believe they have found 15+ knowledgeable, responsible, dedicated owners who are prepared to ensure that their intact animal does not wander and end up pregnant or getting another dog pregnant.

I also love that at 4 weeks the puppies are moved to the “big barn nursery.” I cannot fathom having 8 litters of four week old puppies exposed to 95+ degree weather in Georgia all summer long. They mention that the barn is heated so I guess they keep four-eight week old puppies in the barn throughout the winter as well…fan freaking tastic.

I sent an email asking about OFA results. One of the current litters lists both parents as “OFA Good” but nothing in the OFA database. Maybe I am missing the kennel name or something…?

You can search on partial name and breed:

http://www.offa.org/search.html?action=new

My guess is it still won’t be there, but it’s worth a shot, maybe?

[QUOTE=Simkie;6519129]
You can search on partial name and breed:

http://www.offa.org/search.html?action=new

My guess is it still won’t be there, but it’s worth a shot, maybe?[/QUOTE]

If you search just the kennel name you find only two dogs in the whole database. One tested for hips/elbows, and one for patellas. That’s it. Neither is on the website, though. :frowning:

[QUOTE=S1969;6518982]
Not to mention that some of their “stud dogs” aren’t even two yet…so their OFA scores would be preliminary only…if they had had them done. But it says “Hips and elbows per Dr. Wallace OFA grade good and Normal”…meaning some vet supposedly is giving his own OFA score to the dogs…not OFA itself. Hmmmm…

FYI, (not that this makes them a good breeder), but most of their dogs don’t live with them.

ETA: the spelling on her website is atrocious![/QUOTE]

Looks like she also partners with Mill Creek Labradoodles (http://millcreeklabradoodles.com/index.php). Exact same website set up, same “guardian” policy, multiple co-owned dogs/litters, and the same sketchy vet condoned OFA grading instead of through OFA. As an added bonus, Sandra Regan sells her puppies through sites like “petsunlimited” “mypetsclassified” “pawsitesonline” “litterads” “puppysites” etc.

It is infuriating that there are no laws to prevent breeders like this from running these puppy mills behind the facade of being caring family-oriented breeders.

I did get a very prompt response! :eek: I am surprised!

I guess the hips are evaluated by an independent radiologist. No idea why…supposedly they are radiologists who also evaluate for OFA…? I can only think of a few reasons to not use OFA but still get their hips evaluated “OFA style” by a radiologist…but that is just my own speculation. Personally I think it’s more than a bit misleading to even suggest “OFA good” in the case of one bitch I looked at - she has an OFA prelim from when she was 5 months old…and as far as I can tell from what was sent to me, that is all…but perhaps I am not reading correctly?

Anyway, I am not comfortable sharing all the details here since I don’t know this breeder…but if anyone is interested let me know. I haven’t decided how to respond yet…

I’m glad someone asked this question, I am puppy shopping at the moment, and it is a bit of a nightmare…

I controversially want a small Beagle, dons tin helmet…I so far have found many descriptions, Pocket Beagle, Olde English Pocket, Mini Beagle, Elizabethan Beagle…all arguing that the other types are sub standard.

I understand that they are not a KC recognized breed, and that’s fine, I want a pet not a breeder or a show dog, but trying to buy responsibly…

Prices from $350 to $1800

Lots of fancy, but hard to navigate websites.

Lots of talk about ‘adopting puppies’ err no you are selling I am buying…

I could go on.

I see nice healthy looking puppies, then find that the kennel is listing several other breeds for sale, that really smacks of puppy mill to me.

People who are dying to ship me a puppy without asking any questions other than “How would you like to pay” screams puppy mill.

What else do I actually look for?

  • So far I'm looking for people with nice plain looking websites, who list their bitches and dogs for me to see.
  • Pictures that are taken in the home, rather than behind a wire fence.
  • Not to many puppies available,
  • People who ask me questions about why I want a puppy and if I know which end is which.

What else can I do?

Go to some reputable beagle breeders and ask them if they will hold the runt of the litter for you. I really abhor the trend towards miniaturizing standard breeds. This is where the puppy mills have a heyday. All they breed for is size, size, size, and pay NO attention to temperment, conformation, or genetic problems. :no: So yes, you get a “mini” beagle, dachsund, terrier, with all sorts of inbred problems, including low inteliigence and hyperactivity.

My trainer’s BF bought her a “miniature” Yorkshire terrier. The poor animal was born defective. Terrible gut issues, three thousand dollars’ worth of surgery, and died before it was one. The breeder said she’d give them “$1000 off” a new puppy (she was selling them for $1500.) Her only goal was to breed the smallest ones as fast as possible. BAD, BAD, IRRESPONSIBLE people.

How many litters do they have in a year? Most reputable breeders have very few. Are they advertising 10 different breeds for sale, or 1-2?

Puppy mills aren’t the only issue. Be careful of the so-called ‘backyard breeders’ who get a low quality animal & think they can breed it and make $. Others can speak more to this than I, but it is hard to find a legit breeder.

[QUOTE=Guin;6519327]
Go to some reputable beagle breeders and ask them if they will hold the runt of the litter for you. I really abhor the trend towards miniaturizing standard breeds. .[/QUOTE]

I knew I would need my tin hat, and yes I feel like a hypocrite on this one. I abhor the trend to breeding ever larger Haffy’s but it is happening, and now I am looking for a small beagle, yes hypocrite, guilty as charged.

But do I really want the runt of a litter, is not there possible health issues with that approach as well.

I am swayed by the arguments that the, I’ll use the term ‘Pocket’, Pocket Beagle did indeed exist in history, and people are trying to recreate what we used to have. I do have concerns how they reach that goal.

I am going to be talking to this kennel, they are the only one close enough to actually visit, I can see how they are getting a smaller size, there is definitely Dachshund in there somewhere.

I love the size of the dogs, around the 10 or 11" and 10 to 15 pounds. I love the energy and just the whole look of them, so yes I want one.

I think the OFA would be interested to know that this kennel is using the Orthopaedic Foundation for Animals’ initials (brain freeze on correct word) on animals that have not been evaluated BY THEM. AFAIK, independent radiologists are not allowed to do this in the OFA’s name.

KBC, you are encouraging that which you are supposedly objecting to. Runt means small, nothing else. And often, the runt catches up and is as big or bigger than the littermates. If a small dog is what you want, get a legit small dog. Not one bred down, without any thought except the $$.

[QUOTE=lauriep;6519423]
KBC, you are encouraging that which you are supposedly objecting to. [/QUOTE]

Oh I think I admitted that I was a hypocrite in an earlier post, but having been owned by one little Beagle, I would really like another.

The other options are chose another small breed, but so far nothing has come close to what I want, choose a regular size beagle, but then I want a small dog, or choose a crossbreed, seen a few, of course there is that new breed the Puggle!

Seems like I am a total hypocrite when it comes to a pet in my house rather a horse in my stable.

There’s a Sheba Inu breeder near where I live in NJ that is considered a puppy mill. On their website now, there are four litters available from July to October. They ship anywhere and accept PayPal for non-refundable deposits. No mention of health guarantees, no show history, and I don’t believe they’re members of the AKC. I’ve seen quite a few negative reviews about the place relating to the temperment of the dogs and their lack of human interaction. Also, they often have “Kennel Help Wanted” ads in the local paper.

Now they’re also breeding Alaskan Malamutes and Golden Retreivers. Their website has lots of cute photos of tiny puppies that are available, which are irresistable. It’s almost like online shoe shopping–so many to choose from.

[QUOTE=KBC;6519316]
I’m glad someone asked this question, I am puppy shopping at the moment, and it is a bit of a nightmare…

I controversially want a small Beagle, dons tin helmet…I so far have found many descriptions, Pocket Beagle, Olde English Pocket, Mini Beagle, Elizabethan Beagle…all arguing that the other types are sub standard.

I understand that they are not a KC recognized breed, and that’s fine, I want a pet not a breeder or a show dog, but trying to buy responsibly…

Prices from $350 to $1800

Lots of fancy, but hard to navigate websites.

Lots of talk about ‘adopting puppies’ err no you are selling I am buying…

I could go on.

I see nice healthy looking puppies, then find that the kennel is listing several other breeds for sale, that really smacks of puppy mill to me.

People who are dying to ship me a puppy without asking any questions other than “How would you like to pay” screams puppy mill.

What else do I actually look for?

  • So far I'm looking for people with nice plain looking websites, who list their bitches and dogs for me to see.
  • Pictures that are taken in the home, rather than behind a wire fence.
  • Not to many puppies available,
  • People who ask me questions about why I want a puppy and if I know which end is which.

What else can I do?[/QUOTE]

There is a standard in AKC for smaller beagles, from 9 to 13 inches is one class, the other for 13 - 15 inches, at least in field competitions, I know less about the conformation ring. The original “pocket beagles” is a rather funny expression historically because ‘begel’ is where some think the name derived which in old French means small. Queen Anne, not Elizabeth, thank God, was the one who bred packs of these smaller beagles to carry in satchels on horseback, a moveable pack so to speak since they were hunting rabbits and they just do not run like a deer or stag. Generally the cottontail rabbit, for instance, will run in a circle of about an acre or so. Bigger running rabbits such as the Kansas Reds or San Juans run a much bigger loop according to their environment.

When we bred beagles for hunting and for field trial purposes, we from time to time would have a smaller, not necessarily runt, but smaller beagles, rarely though. One famous one was named Ruby, a red and black and altogether a fine looking dog and was not a dwarf, and she stood at 9". It is possible to find someone who breeds through a publication called “Hounds and Hunting” out of Pennsylvania and go through the want ads, or look at the kennel listings. Now, not when we were competing, but now there are bench competitions along with the field trials and that has helped create what I had always wanted when I was younger, a beautifully made, short coupled hound with a good head, free movement and with stamina to burn. The obscenities that I saw at the time were parrot mouths particularly, that, I think has been pretty much obliterated.

I would contact some through those publications and ask them to hold a small puppy for you from one of those litters. It is possible to breed 9" or so called pocket dogs without getting into the miniaturization of the beagle and all of the atrocities that go along with creating toy dogs. They are neat little creatures and will be just as healthy as any of the so called “regular” sized dogs because they are at the low end of the traditionally sized scale that was always accepted in the field work of the AKC.

BTW, the magazine Hounds and Hunting has been in publication for about 100 years. They have some very interesting histories of the beagle in the US alone. Read about the famous black and white “Patch Hounds” and enjoy your “merry beagle”.

Thank you so much Calamber, I will spend a happy evening pursuing your leads, what a great idea,:slight_smile:

Well, how do they place their puppies? Do the require vet check, premise visit, fenced yard, etc? Do they require dogs to be returned rather than sold on?

And are they a member in goog standing of their parent club with the AKC, for all the breeds they “produce”?

Are all these breeding dogs CHIC registered or at least OFA hips and elbows and eyes CERFed?

I cannot imagine such a high volume breeder would be responsible.

Boggles the mind…

I would love to see their sales contract.

Who would fall for such a thing?

KBC: To me this looks like a backyard breeder going for size alone. They have been breeding for 4 years. That is an absurdly short amount of time. Yes everyone needs to start somewhere but there is no reference to working with a mentor, learning through other programs for years before embarking on their own, doing field work with prior beagles, or even previous beagle experience.

They also don’t have any reference for the purpose for their dogs. Size alone is never a reason to breed. As Calamber explained, this breed or size range has an intended purpose so why are these people breeding for a size without using these dogs for their intended purpose?

To me these dogs are “cute” but I don’t see anything (outside of size) which makes these specific dogs worthy of being bred.

[QUOTE=pony baloney;6519447]
There’s a Sheba Inu breeder near where I live in NJ that is considered a puppy mill. On their website now, there are four litters available from July to October. They ship anywhere and accept PayPal for non-refundable deposits. No mention of health guarantees, no show history, and I don’t believe they’re members of the AKC. I’ve seen quite a few negative reviews about the place relating to the temperment of the dogs and their lack of human interaction. Also, they often have “Kennel Help Wanted” ads in the local paper.

Now they’re also breeding Alaskan Malamutes and Golden Retreivers. Their website has lots of cute photos of tiny puppies that are available, which are irresistable. It’s almost like online shoe shopping–so many to choose from.[/QUOTE]

I was nervous when we went out to find a Golden Retriever puppy for my dad here in NJ. There are so many bad things you hear about these breeders, but an e-friend of mine suggested a breeder in NH that worked with her parents dogs.

http://www.starquestgoldens.com/index.html

At first I was a little nervous because there were a bunch of pictures of litters, but then I noticed everything was spoken for. I emailed the owner, and told her I was looking for a dog for my dad. When I didn’t hear back right away I followed up again, I mentioned who referred me (and explained that my dad is not computer saavy), and she responded and said that she normally would never deal with someone other than the person who is going to be the direct care taker of one of her dogs. I found this to be positive. I had to fill out an extensive questionnaire, including details about who we planned to use for vet care.

She didn’t have anything for me at that time, but I was super excited to hear about an upcoming breeding between my two favorite dogs on the website (and it turned out that it would be the Dams final litter, but I didn’t know that at the time). I put a deposit down, and got all sorts of updates when the puppies were born. My dad and my sister drove to NH to pick him up (she will not ship an animal), and they say that the facility was top rate. He is AKC registered (we had to pick a name that identified them as the breeder as well as incorporate the “name” of his litter), we got a 5 generation pedigree, and all the health certs (including thyroid) for him, and saw the same stats for the previous generations.

He does not have perfect show confirmation (and is wayyyyy too fat), but he is an absolutely wonderful family dog. He is friendly, fun, loves my 3 year old niece, and is also very protective.

It is pretty easy to make a decent website, and it stinks that really great breeders like the one we dealt with have to endure this sort of thing with less scrupulous breeders, and people who just want a fluffy puppy. My friends have a Golden they got from a random breeder and have vet bills out the wazzoo with all the issues he has, and he isn’t even 2 yet!

Curious about who runs the “Olde English Pocket Beagle” Registry Rafter V Ranch says all their dogs are registered with. And there is DEFINITELY dachshund in there because Beagles don’t come in silver, or have gray/green eyes. Also look at the puppies pictures. Some have dome heads, others flat skulled. That much inconsistency is a big red flag.