How do you determine a Puppy Mill?

[HenryisBlaisin]

[QUOTE=Cagney;6545952]
Did you not read all the posts and vicious things being said about me before I even joined the discussion?[/QUOTE]

And had you answered the questions put forth and explained your operation in a rational, professional adult manner, you may well have changed some minds. Also, you may be an exception, but would you not be suspicious of someone who was not a vet breeding so heavily? If you are responsibly breeding finished champions to finished champions (or winning field trial dogs) and finding non-show homes for all pups that do not equal or exceed their parents in conformation, health, and temperament (after they have been altered and properly socialized, of course),and you had explained that from the start and then answered the questions posed, many people might have understood your side of the story. Sometimes, as the professional, you have to be the bigger person.

[Kryswyn]

Well, go away for a weekend and look what happens!

In my very first post and thereafter I have never stated what breeder had sparked my question. To me it really wasn’t important [I]what[I] kind of dog was being bred. Nor was I trying to slam any particular breeder. I’m sorry if a particular breeder thought they recognized their program. The truth is I know at least three vets who are breeders and have large operations. Large enough that kennel help is required. And who charge a minimum of $1,000 per puppy. I certainly know many breeders, just of Jack Russell Terriers who charge at least $800 per puppy, although my JRT friends have only a few litters a year, and none would say they’re trying to make money doing it.

If I wanted to specifically out some breeder I would have. I really just asked the question to find out what other people thought.

To restate: my query was “What makes someone a puppy mill?”. The consensus on this board seems to be 1) number of puppies born each year; 2) condition dogs are kept in; 3) registry breed/s are affiliated with; 4) price per puppy; 5) are puppies taken back throughout their lifetime.

I would say that my question has been answered. Breeders who do everything right apparently still need to be aware that they have education to do because public perception apparently equates a large number of puppies with a mill. In this day and age where rescue and adoption are on the public mind anyone who breeds dogs is coming under scrutiny. Large scale breeders of horses are coming under fire too in these times where 10s of thousands of horses are sold for slaughter every year.

I think the further dividing line is that COTHers don’t want to see people breeding dogs as a business. So anyone who appears to make substantial amounts of money from selling puppies, no matter how well bred and cared for, is viewed with a bit of suspicion. It appears breeding to increase the size of the gene pool is not reason enough to justify breeding a large number of puppies each year. Nor is breeding so that future books on the history of a breed mention you as a founder/important person. Though I suppose both of those might be considered worthy goals to some.

To reiterate, it was NOT my intention to slam any particular breeder. There are plenty of breeders out there who fit the description.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Mosey_2003;6545966]
Well yes, I read them. They were speculation. You could have calmly cleared it up. Instead, you went psycho defensive and have made yourself look much worse. It’s people talking on an internet forum, not that big a deal. Honestly, if you had never posted nobody would have known who you were at all and it would have died out. Get over it, sh*t happens. Sometimes the Moderators take vacations.[/QUOTE]

Wow, I guess I went to bed too early last night! :lol:

This is my thought…I had long since forgotten about all the original post and the anonymous breeder from another source. :rolleyes:

I missed all the excitement but even with just the few quoted bits that remained it took only about 2 minutes to figure out who this breeder was. Regardless of breeding practices or show success…that’s 42 puppies born since June…all of her breeding, whether she whelped/raised them or not. That’s a lot.

In reading the AKC website, there is an open registration on this breed until 2017, so maybe the goal is to produce as many as possible? I have no idea…that would have been an interesting discussion, however.

I’m a little disappointed I bothered putting as much thought into my replies as I did. I didn’t attack the breeder (visciously or otherwise) (despite, IMO, there being a fair amount of easy targets in her first post…) but apparently she wasn’t interested in any discussion. Too bad, because she had a chance to explain to us how her breeding program was NOT a puppy mill. I guess maybe she tried…but the long, paragraph-less first post was too confusing to follow where she was going…

[Bicoastal]

Breed is JRTs. Breeder produces loads of litters.

As captured in a quote, the breed is Russels. JRTs. From Cagney’s posts, you would think she is responsible for ensuring the survival of a nearly extinct breed by owning/co-owning the entire gene pool :lol:.

Breed to other kennels. Then you don’t have scores of dogs and bitches AND you are improving the breed by using the absolute best. Good JRTs don’t begin and end with Cagney’s kennels; contrary to what she might think .

I don’t know how to quote a quote so I can’t illustrate the exact sentences I mean. Just re-read her first post Mosey wisely captured. The beginning about “save…puppies” where’s the fruitbat?

The increase in litters since AKC recognition and the number of puppies on the ground, in utero, and planned is unethical and unsupportable. I don’t believe showing justifies anywhere close to the numbers Cagney is churning out. For shame.

[Bicoastal]

[QUOTE=S1969;6546176]

I’m a little disappointed I bothered putting as much thought into my replies as I did. I didn’t attack the breeder (visciously or otherwise) (despite, IMO, there being a fair amount of easy targets in her first post…) but apparently she wasn’t interested in any discussion. Too bad, because she had a chance to explain to us how her breeding program was NOT a puppy mill. I guess maybe she tried…but the long, paragraph-less first post was too confusing to follow where she was going…[/QUOTE]

Your efforts are not wasted. Folks need to see all sides. If Cagney was more secure in her intentions and breeding program, she would have replied to the thoughtful, respectful, concise queries asked.

COTH is a highly educated and ethical community. She disappeared when the first educated question was asked.

[Mosey_2003]

Looks like the Mods got her message. Don’t think it was what she was hoping for :lol:

[Kryswyn]

Well folks I think we’re done here. Though not my intention, one particular breeder has unintentionally put herself out there and she’s being attacked so I’m going to ask the Mods to lock this thread. Thank you for your input.