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How do you evaluate foal movement?

Sport Horse Breeding
#81

[QUOTE=stolensilver;5673036]
I’m wondering if two different aims are being discussed here. One aim being the site inspections of young horses being shown loose and the other aim being GP dressage. Those aims are very different and it is a very rare horse that will excel in both of them.

It is widely known that some showjumpers look fabulous loose jumping as a youngster but never amount to anything with a rider. Their technique doesn’t adapt to carrying the weight of a person on their back. IME dressage horses are similar. A young horse with huge movement is at increased rusk of injury and the huge movers often disappear after 2nd level. It is soundness and a good brain that get a horse to GP. Having a sire and preferably a dam who trained to that level is a huge help when you are looking to buy and trying to work out which youngster has the steel in their backbone to keep on trying their hardest when the work gets tough. That’s what makes the difference between a nice horse and an FEI horse, their work ethic.[/QUOTE]

Well you are completely right:):slight_smile:

But… one other point which is usually underestimated is the quality of the rider… Some riders will always train the horses they have to a very high level and others won´t…
So I think its a mixture of character, natural abilities and a very able rider…
And IMO really thats the point… If you are looking for a foal you need to get one with the right attitude (so its important to look for the work attitude of the mother…) and with high natural quality. Than you need to raise it correctly and healthy and than you have to find the right rider for this particular horse… And than you have the chance that your foal will succed in dressage competitions…

#82

[QUOTE=amastrike;5672928]
… This afternoon Lily was sprawled out asleep. I tried to get her up so her godmother could see how big she’s gotten, but filly would NOT get up. I was rocking her whole body side to side and she slept on. Don’t know how she does it…[/QUOTE]

Not to hijack but Amastrike, thank God I’m not alone. I was getting a tad worried over our Apiro x Waquoit xx filly but your above post and the previous one about your girl regarding eating, sleeping and butt scritches perfectly describes April who’s still like that at 2yo. She will even take her vaccine needles lying down if we happen to interrupt her nap. She isn’t asleep at the wheel by any means - maybe the smartest one we’ve had for ages and fast as lightning too, but boy, she sure loves to snooze and snuggle.:slight_smile:

#83

Agree there’s more to the overall GP equation than movement.
But for this discussion, we’re focusing on foal movement. :slight_smile:

Does anyone have a video showing an adult horse that moves out behind AND a video of that horse as a foal? What do those look like as foals? Everyone one posted so far has looked like a pretty nice mover.

#84

Thanks to both you & Stolensilver for your comments. So very true.

In the grand scheme of things, I think basic movement (within reason, of course) is probably the LAST thing that will contribute to a horse’s ability to go GP or not.

Far more important: constitution/soundness, trainability/mind, rider(s) & their ability not to just train a horse, but to keep them fit and happy.

IMHO this is one reason the “R” line does so well. They are not the flashiest movers on the planet, but they work hard and have high rideablity/trainability.

#85

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;5673398]
Thanks to both you & Stolensilver for your comments. So very true.

In the grand scheme of things, I think basic movement (within reason, of course) is probably the LAST thing that will contribute to a horse’s ability to go GP or not.

Far more important: constitution/soundness, trainability/mind, rider(s) & their ability not to just train a horse, but to keep them fit and happy.

IMHO this is one reason the “R” line does so well. They are not the flashiest movers on the planet, but they work hard and have high rideablity/trainability.[/QUOTE]

BUT after breeding horses from dressage lines for 17 years now (now I stopped because of bad economic times…) I can tell you… If you want to sell a horse before it is turned into a well ridden Dressage horse, like as a foal, a yearling or a just broken-in Riding horse, it is very difficult to convince a buyer prospect about the character qualities of the horse when it is not showing movement above average…

#86

[QUOTE=amastrike;5672888]
Here’s my filly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G28sTPYO1c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VneEzdSsGds

It’s almost impossible to get footage of her moving… she spends all of her time eating, sleeping, and begging for butt scritches.[/QUOTE]

I like her a lot. :yes:

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned in this discussion is athleticism… different from movement as most people judge it and absolutely critical to a horse to go GP and do well. Difficult to judge in a foal because they are so much lighter and smaller than an adult.

Perhaps also athleticism is something that is a little harder to find in many dressage horses, whereas in jumpers there is no subjective way around a lack of athleticism.

#87

You are totally correct. That’s why it’s great to get a few steps of fancy trot or a high score at foal inspections. And of course these fancy foals are the ones that get big $$ at auctions.

But I suspect many super dressage horses were very average at their foal inspections & also the other way around.

Personally, if I was buying a foal for dressage, I would look more at the production record of it’s parents & grandparents, it’s basic conformation and it’s attitude towards training (and you can tell that pretty early I feel).

Unfortunately what usually happens if the horse doesn’t work out is the buyer blames the horse…of course we all know it’s usually the rider :wink:

#88

[QUOTE=GGStables;5673083]
Not to hijack but Amastrike, thank God I’m not alone. I was getting a tad worried over our Apiro x Waquoit xx filly but your above post and the previous one about your girl regarding eating, sleeping and butt scritches perfectly describes April who’s still like that at 2yo. She will even take her vaccine needles lying down if we happen to interrupt her nap. She isn’t asleep at the wheel by any means - maybe the smartest one we’ve had for ages and fast as lightning too, but boy, she sure loves to snooze and snuggle.:)[/QUOTE]

That’s Lily, just a 2 year age difference! She got dewormed for the first time while laying down, made it very easy! She’s smart and feisty and absolutely LOVES people. Napping and getting spoiled are her two favorite activities.

Thanks :). I don’t know much (or anything) about foal movement, so my thought that she looks good really doesn’t mean anything, lol.

#89

How about something a bit different.

How to evaluate the canter in youngsters? I’ve seen some truly lovely canters on foals and yearlings…and then others that look really lateral. Especially when their little tails filp up over their backs and they squirt off.

Do you worry about it…or just look at the walk and if you see a good walk, know that there should be a good canter in there eventually?

For full disclosure…I see a very lateral canter in my yearling and am chosing to not freak out–as she is butt high right now. I’m hoping it will get better—or I will really gear her toward the jumpers (she’s jumper bred anyway). But a lateral canter will get dinged even in eventing dressage;)

#90

Was her canter always ‘lateral’ (? - not sure what you mean - disunited? Or “proingy”). A sustained “bad” canter at any age would make me unhappy, the odd proing, not so much if most of the time the canter was good. Even when they are really bum high I like to see auto changes.

My 2 1/2 day old has auto changes and canter pirouettes. He does a step or two of “proing” when he goes from stop to warp speed, but on the whole I’d say this foal has good movement (this is first time out, so legs are still a bit wobbly).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsQFbiyge8

(the music is slightly obnoxious btw)

#91

Lateral…well I mean lateral. Hard to describe otherwise–they don’t hold a clear 3 beat–closer to 2 but it doesn’t meean they are disunited (and holding a 4 beated canter). She is very balanced and can do auto changes galore. She was not as lateral as a foal.

I’ve personally known a few foals/ youngsters that were prone to a more lateral canter who out grew it. Usually they are just being a bit lazy and you just have to keep the “jump” in their canter when working. Here is her canter…she is very butt high and being lazy in this video–which is why I think her canter is more lateral then it will be when she is full grown. But yeah…I’m concerned and if she doesn’t out grow it, she can be a jumper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxRAbwpVzcw

I’m hoping that if you have a good clear 4 beat walk…you can get a good clear 3 beat canter from them. If they are lateral at both the walk and canter…then …

But I was curious as to other experiences since many on this board have a lot more experience with foals to adults than I do.

#92

I don’t agree with this. Although the above is so very important, I think movement is too for the following reason. If it is easy for them to do it naturally they will want to do it under saddle often too. It is easier to ask for it, you get little fuss, and even the witchiest of horses will do what is easies first without complaint over those activities that are difficult. You will battle a horses confirmation on those activities that demand more of them in there weak areas. They may pull off the moves some of the time, but most of the time they will struggle with it. This will challenge even the best minded horses if we ask them to these things often. I prefer the horse that does them easily. As far seeing it in foals, I think you can see if they naturally engage their behinds which leads to lifting of the front end. You can see if they push back behind themselves or they stay underneath. You can see if they use their shoulder and if their movement is either more or less forward or up. If they become a GP horse, well time will tell.

Tim

Tim

#93

My trainer says: You need the right tools for the job.

And the right horse “tool” is one who can do the job easily and isn’t fighting his conformation.

#94

Ok, I see what you mean. I think that the indoor is quite small? Maybe that’s why she doesn’t want to move out? What I see is a horse that is not using its back at all, just moving the legs. I honestly don’t know if that’s a phase she’ll grow out of or if it’s WYSIWYG.

#95

I’m pretty sure she saw no point whatsoever in running around in circles in a little indoor.

#96

We’re not talking about badly formed horses – I am talking about well-conformed foals with CORRECT movement, albeit not particularly flashy. And yes, they need to be able to use their body, but a smart rider/trainer can do much to improve that ability, increase flexibility, etc.

And I still maintain that of all the things that make up a successful upper level dressage horse, a natural “brilliance” of movement is the least important.

For instance, you can have the most brilliant mover on the planet, but if he’s nervous or chronically sore or just one of those pissy types, you are not going to get anything from that movement.

Obviously you don’t really want a “clod” type of horse, but I have to point out that the dressage ring has been filled with GP horses for years & years who didn’t really show “brilliant” movement until their training was well advanced.

Example: Absent. Akhal Teke stallion who should not have been able to do GP (Tekes are lean horses with long backs) at all. Yet he went on to compete in 3 Olympics under 2 different riders and won more Gold medals in dressage than any horse in history till Rembrandt came along (they tied).

Not to mention so many very plain “beer-wagon” type horses who still did pretty darn good in the ring under the right riders.

#97

a natural “brilliance” of movement is the least important.

I think we all know that.

What this discussion is about is evaluating foal movement and correct movement is a major part of the GP equation. A disjointed canter or out behind trot isn’t going to work well at GP. So evaluating foal movement is an important thing to know how to do.

Let me ask this:

Would you cherry pick temperment first and then pick the best mover out of the best temperment pool of horses? OR Would you pick the best tempered out of the previously cherry picked best moving pool of horses?

Most people here look at movement first and then look at temperment. This is what I’d do.

#98

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;5677069]
I think we all know that.

What this discussion is about is evaluating foal movement and correct movement is a major part of the GP equation. A disjointed canter or out behind trot isn’t going to work well at GP. So evaluating foal movement is an important thing to know how to do.

Let me ask this:

Would you cherry pick temperment first and then pick the best mover out of the best temperment pool of horses? OR Would you pick the best tempered out of the previously cherry picked best moving pool of horses?

Most people here look at movement first and then look at temperment. This is what I’d do.[/QUOTE]

disclaimer - my parents have been at this a long time so I’ve had an ‘inside edge’ when it comes to seeing generations and families of horses coming up the levels in various disciplines. I grew up and moved up the levels on homebreds that they trained. That being said - building a Grand Prix horse is not a black & white science. It is an art. You have to know what the limitations/strengths/weaknesses/intelligence is of the preceding generations to ‘get it right’ in the next…and that is still where it is up to genetics to combine in exactly the right way to have the final product come out as a finished GP horse.

My .02 cents - people either breed for the market (foal sales) or they breed for riding horses - meaning you can breed (select) for correct conformation, a good brain, high rideability and correct movement and a good dash of jumping talent and it might work. In doing that you start with proven parents that have competed GP and produced GP horses and you will find that there are concessions that will be made - color, markings, type, not the prettiest foal, etc. That is totally bucking the trend of breeding to the licensing champions, hot young horse stallions, the most heavily promoted, etc…

It has been ingrained into my psyche that PSG is only half way to Grand Prix and I’ll be honest - as a rider - the PSG is a rather easy test. Executing it to perfection on any given day is challenging but the exercises within the test are not complicated or presented in a difficult sequence. Confession #2 - I go off course all the time below 4th Level as I am easily distracted and there is far too much time between each movement…it is boring to do so little. Grand Prix horses are the same way - lower level stars are generally not super stars at GP. The timing is different, the concessions that were made to produce a polished test for a show at 1st level affect the options of finishing the GP horse.

What I look for - the engagement of the hind quarters, clean changes 100% of the time, good balance to their body both in motion and standing still, decent slope to the shoulder that is on the long side and a neck that is on the short side of normal. No base narrow (front or hind) in stance or motion and parents that had easy mouths and were not one sided. If the foals are ugly as a sow’s ear after weaning or take until they are 6 to come together as a marketable package but are easy to start, train and compete - that is just fine.

Triangle trotters that win when only 2 gaits are judged are all well and good but you have to have a canter that is at least a 7 to push past PSG. The quality of the horse’s mind, stoicism and innate talent are what carry you beyond. Grand Prix horses are freaks as they find the most difficult exercises easy. Their mind settles with more complicated and demanding physical exertion. It is fun to them! They are not for the average rider or going to be produced 100% of the time - no matter who the parents are.

There is no easy answer of what to look for in a young horse (obviously). You know when you see it - sort of like falling in love, I guess. :slight_smile: The best way of knowing IME - is to ride the parents and to then ride the offspring or multiple offspring of the stallion. But they needed to go beyond PSG too :winkgrin: otherwise it is a crapshoot.

JMHO.

#99

I can’t really expand much on Tasker’s post (excellent post btw), but to answer your question – when I evaluate movement (in a foal) I honestly don’t look at the trot too much. I look more at the canter. I look for easy and frequent changes (like the foal is doing it for fun), the ability to “sit” and use it’s hindquarter while playing (like doing reining horse “slides” in the pasture) and freedom in the shoulder.

I also look at the way a foal learns…I think (and this is just my opinion) that you CAN tell how a foal is going to be u/s to a great degee by testing their “learning” skills. This doesn’t have anything to do with being friendly or sweet - it has to do with how the foal behaves when presented with something difficult or something it doesn’t want to do. Hard to explain.

Which would I pick? Given equally correct conformation I would pick the CORRECT but only slightly better than average mover with a solid mind over the brilliant mover without it.

And Tasker is correct – like other folks have mentioned – breeding for fancy, marketable, high $ foals is probably a different deal than actually trying to produce a GP horse.

#100

Sorry, but I have never understood the premise that gets repeated again and again here that a super mover is likely to have a bad brain or that a horse with a brilliant trot is likely to have a lousy canter. Etc, etc, etc… That is all a bit OT to the OP’s thread, anyway.

As far as foals appearing out back very early on, I agree with whoever it was that pointed out that in the first few days the legs are so very long and tend to be all over the place. The OP needs to do what Alexandra and others have advised - look at tons of babies and different stages hopefully in the company of folks who can help you interpret what you see. It takes time to learn what is important and what is not, what is unlikely to change and what is. That’s one of the things that makes breeding so fascinating.

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