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How do you evaluate foal movement?

Sport Horse Breeding
#101

I haven’t really gotten the sense that anyone thinks brilliant movers are bad-minded or the other way around. That’s certainly not my thought.

Naturally you want 3 correct gaits – all three would be great. AND the mind.

But you are right – the topic has strayed from “evaluating a foal’s movement” into “what makes it easy to predict GP ability in a foal.”

Of course, not the first time on COTH a thread has gone OT:).

I guess my point is that its very difficult to predict from foal movement if that horse has the ability to go all the way to GP level.

#102

Regarding the last post I´d like to cite Klaus Balkenhol whom I really respect…

He says in this Video Trailer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shWpHbr_fvk&feature=related

A GP Horse is made not born!!

I agree with him. You can evaluate foal movements. And if the foal moves well in all three gaits, in connection with coming from lines which were well producing in the past, you will probably get a well moving young horse…
But becomint a GP horse is something different…

#103

He also said better horses come from better lines… You can’t make a very willing, but unathletic horse do GP dressage and win at it. You can’t take a very athletic horse with very poor rideability to GP winning either. No one is questioning that you need both. One cannot trump the other. However, this poster was not asking how to evaluate a foals temperment, they were asking how to evaluate a foals movement, and this you can do with a trained eye. As a breeder, you must be able to do this to know if your choices were initially good. You have to breed the mare again, and know what worked and what didn’t matters in our world. 7-10 years later when that choice plays itself out in the real world, we will maybe adjust again. For the most part we must work with what we have now.

Tim

#104

What RyTimMick and Home Again said…

If you look at enough foals, the outstanding one will - in fact - stand out! But you have to know what you’re looking at and leave all your preconceived notions about what makes a good GP horse at home.

And yes, like Home Again Farm, it want it all… the foal with the great bloodlines that speak of success in the chosen discipline, as well as one that leaves your mouth hanging open because of its extravagant movement. I have been “lucky” enough to have bred a few of those and it seems the longer I’m doing this, the luckier I get! :slight_smile:

#105

[QUOTE=siegi b.;5678125]
What RyTimMick and Home Again said…

If you look at enough foals, the outstanding one will - in fact - stand out! But you have to know what you’re looking at and leave all your preconceived notions about what makes a good GP horse at home.

And yes, like Home Again Farm, it want it all… the foal with the great bloodlines that speak of success in the chosen discipline, as well as one that leaves your mouth hanging open because of its extravagant movement. I have been “lucky” enough to have bred a few of those and it seems the longer I’m doing this, the luckier I get! :)[/QUOTE]

I agree… And even beeing in the danger to be accused breeding good movers only for the money… I think it is more fun to have foals with outstanding movement.
My newest experience in that field is connected with dog breeding…
I planned a breeding with an outstanding moving sire. The result is a pup who is with 9 months already placed 2nd in the Group…

#106

When I look at babies I look to see if the hock breaks the plane of of the body, positive diagonal placement (back hoof hitting the ground before the opposite front hoof) and balance and carrying power in the canter. Trots may sell foals but the canter makes the performance horse.

As an example here is a foal trotting free

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EMt69xflCE

and the same horse under saddle at 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9trIiKBy9g&feature=related

#107

A GP Horse is made not born!!

Oh yah? I wonder if good ol KB would be chanting those words with as much enthusiam if he had non suitable horses to start with. When a horse is born with “the right stuff” (as I am sure all of the horses in his barn are), it finds it’s job relatively easy and that in turn makes the riders job MUCH easier. It maybe even makes people think that GP horses are made and not born. But put Klaus B on a 14.2 hh ranch bred Quarter Horse and then see if he still believes that it is all about the training.

#108

[QUOTE=Donella;5678370]
A GP Horse is made not born!!

Oh yah? I wonder if good ol KB would be chanting those words with as much enthusiam if he had non suitable horses to start with. When a horse is born with “the right stuff” (as I am sure all of the horses in his barn are), it finds it’s job relatively easy and that in turn makes the riders job MUCH easier. It maybe even makes people think that GP horses are made and not born. But put Klaus B on a 14.2 hh ranch bred Quarter Horse and then see if he still believes that it is all about the training.[/QUOTE]

Just to defend him… His first horse he trained for GP was a plain police horse. And as far as I know are those horses solid, but not high priced because the Goverment buys them.

And different horsebreeds are bred for different purposes. So maybe it is not fair to expect a QH to excel in something they were not bred for…

But I agree, to start with a horse with extraordinary abilities makes it easier in the end.

#109

And we do need to remember that folks were riding GP dressage long before WBs became the go-to breed…

#110

[QUOTE=Manni01;5678867]
Just to defend him… His first horse he trained for GP was a plain police horse. And as far as I know are those horses solid, but not high priced because the Goverment buys them.

And different horsebreeds are bred for different purposes. So maybe it is not fair to expect a QH to excel in something they were not bred for…

But I agree, to start with a horse with extraordinary abilities makes it easier in the end.[/QUOTE]

Goldstern (Klaus’ mount in the 90’s) was a registered Westphalian with a very normal pedigree - a double dose of Abglanz, some Duellant, some Wohler and then plenty of names that I recognize from pedigree research - Aristides is in Wolkentanz’s damline, for instance. “Just a police horse” in Germany is not quite the same thing as it might be over on this side of the pond.

And I’ll double check but Goldstern was his first internationally successful GP horse but not the first horse he trained up to GP.

Guenter had Nikolaus 7 in about the same timeframe (maybe a bit later) competing for the US. He was also by Weinberg.

Sorry OP for going off topic but comment like the one I quoted are how the ‘mythology’ of misinformation get started.

#111

Apologies to the OP for more straying OT.

I so agree with this. I interpret it to mean that there are many talented young horses who are born with the gaits, balance, mind to be trained to GP. However, that is not enough to make them reach GP. Those horses then must land in the hands of a rider who can correctly develop them through the levels. That is the trick that so often fails to be achieved.

How many potential GP horses (ie horses that have the potential to go to GP successfully) do you suppose are born each year in Europe, as opposed to the number that actually make it? I propose that the number who make it is a fairly low percentage of the whole. I also propose that that difference is greatly magnified on this side of the pond where there is a lack of trainers who develop young horses truly correctly and few riders who are capable of producing a real GP horse.

Let’s face it tasker, you were lucky enough to be born into a family that has a legacy of decades of excellent training experience as well as generations of horses that have the capability to be trained through the levels. Those same horses in less experienced hands might have languished at the lower levels. You are one lucky lady and I give you and your family full credit where credit is due. But, I propose that your horses, like Klaus’s are made, not just born.

And I also propose that there are getting to be quite a few breeders here that are producing horses that have just as much potential for that level. I also propose that there are triangle trotters who have the gaits and brains to go to GP. Just because they only walk and trot on that triangle, there is no way I am going to waste showing a horse that I don’t feel has the ability to also excel under saddle. :winkgrin::yes:

#112

[QUOTE=Tasker;5678917]
Goldstern (Klaus’ mount in the 90’s) was a registered Westphalian with a very normal pedigree - a double dose of Abglanz, some Duellant, some Wohler and then plenty of names that I recognize from pedigree research - Aristides is in Wolkentanz’s damline, for instance. “Just a police horse” in Germany is not quite the same thing as it might be over on this side of the pond.

And I’ll double check but Goldstern was his first internationally successful GP horse but not the first horse he trained up to GP.

Guenter had Nikolaus 7 in about the same timeframe (maybe a bit later) competing for the US. He was also by Weinberg.

Sorry OP for going off topic but comment like the one I quoted are how the ‘mythology’ of misinformation get started.[/QUOTE]

Please excuse me, but IMO this is not completely correct…
Klaus Balkenhol first GP Horse was horse he rode during his duties as a police officer.
His name was Rabauke.
Balkenhol got Goldstern, after he was already successful.
Sorry for correcting you but the Story of Rabauke and Balkenhol was one of my favorites during that time…

http://balkenhol.org.internet-home.net/deutsch/mediaframe.htm
There are pictures of Rabauke in this link. I don´t know his breeding …though

Oh concerning Goldstern. I think he was also a horse bought for the policeduty for 6000 Mark (around 3000 Euro) as a young horse.
After Balkenhol won the German Championships with Rabauke he was allowed to chose from all the future policehorses and Goldstern was the one he chose.

I will look for the link…

#113

[B]Just to defend him… His first horse he trained for GP was a plain police horse. And as far as I know are those horses solid, but not high priced because the Goverment buys them.

And different horsebreeds are bred for different purposes. So maybe it is not fair to expect a QH to excel in something they were not bred for…[/B]

Cheap doesn’t mean unsuited. If we stood the horse up and looked at him moving, it is probably really easy to see why the horse was suited to the sport.

And you are right, it is not fair to expect a horse that is not built for a sport to excell in it. That is exactly my point. The conformation and bred in qualities of a horse are first and foremost what determines a horse’s chances of ever getting somewhere in the sport.

Of course they must be trained. Doesn’t that go without saying??? So if he wasn’t trying to downplay the important of what the breeder contributes, what was his point?

#114

[QUOTE=Donella;5679233]
[B]Just to defend him… His first horse he trained for GP was a plain police horse. And as far as I know are those horses solid, but not high priced because the Goverment buys them.

And different horsebreeds are bred for different purposes. So maybe it is not fair to expect a QH to excel in something they were not bred for…[/B]

Cheap doesn’t mean unsuited. If we stood the horse up and looked at him moving, it is probably really easy to see why the horse was suited to the sport.

And you are right, it is not fair to expect a horse that is not built for a sport to excell in it. That is exactly my point. The conformation and bred in qualities of a horse are first and foremost what determines a horse’s chances of ever getting somewhere in the sport.

Of course they must be trained. Doesn’t that go without saying??? So if he wasn’t trying to downplay the important of what the breeder contributes, what was his point?[/QUOTE]

Why did you interpret this sentence as something negative for the role of the breeder??? I really can´t imagine that he intended to do that…

Both parts are essential for the Creation of an GP horse. The breeder and the trainer (or rider). One wouldn´t succed without the other…

#115

Both parts are essential for the Creation of an GP horse. The breeder and the trainer (or rider). One wouldn´t succed without the other…

Because he said “a GP is made NOT bred”. It is emphasizing, if not giving total credit to, the training part. As an FEI rider I definately get how important the training is and that it takes a whole team to get a horse to GP. But if the starting material is not appropriate then the effort will be in vain.

#116

[QUOTE=Donella;5679278]
Both parts are essential for the Creation of an GP horse. The breeder and the trainer (or rider). One wouldn´t succed without the other…

Because he said “a GP is made NOT bred”. It is emphasizing, if not giving total credit to, the training part. As an FEI rider I definately get how important the training is and that it takes a whole team to get a horse to GP. But if the starting material is not appropriate then the effort will be in vain.[/QUOTE]

But… For example Rabauke… He won the Vice title of the National German Championships in Dressage with Klaus Balkenhol in 1979
Believe me, if this would have been known when he was sold to the German Police, they could have not afforded to buy him. Even at that time potential sucessful Dressagehorses were pretty expensive.
He probably was appropriate starting material, but nobody knew…
So from his point of view Klaus Balkenhol was right. Without him as the rider Raubauke would have been never succesful.

But I think we really left the original topic now completely… I think this topic is very much connected with the original topic but still might be worth to open another thread…

#117

[QUOTE=Manni01;5679210]
Please excuse me, but IMO this is not completely correct…
Klaus Balkenhol first GP Horse was horse he rode during his duties as a police officer.
His name was Rabauke.
Balkenhol got Goldstern, after he was already successful.
Sorry for correcting you but the Story of Rabauke and Balkenhol was one of my favorites during that time…

http://balkenhol.org.internet-home.net/deutsch/mediaframe.htm
There are pictures of Rabauke in this link. I don´t know his breeding …though

Oh concerning Goldstern. I think he was also a horse bought for the policeduty for 6000 Mark (around 3000 Euro) as a young horse.
After Balkenhol won the German Championships with Rabauke he was allowed to chose from all the future policehorses and Goldstern was the one he chose.

I will look for the link…[/QUOTE]

No worries! Sorry to not have double checked my info before posting! A good friend was training @ Rehbein’s during the 80’s and it was too early to shoot her an email to double check! Sorry! Anywho I did find his pedigree - Rabauke - http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=604058

#118

[QUOTE=Tasker;5679295]
No worries! Sorry to not have double checked my info before posting! A good friend was training @ Rehbein’s during the 80’s and it was too early to shoot her an email to double check! Sorry! Anywho I did find his pedigree - Rabauke - http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=604058[/QUOTE]

sorry again for all this confusion… But are you sure you found the right Rabauke… IMO he was born in 1968 already. Because he became German Vice Champion in 1979. I found another one but that one was also younger…

#119

Watched the Klaus Balkenhol video and am not sure where the issue is. His first sentence is “Good breeding lines lead to good work and less good lines lead to difficulties”.
When he was talking about a GP horse being made not born he was comparing it to a jumper who’s talent is more raw and can not be trained in where most horses can be trained to some level of dressage and even the brilliant ones need the training. Totilas is a good example, everyone was wondering where he came from because as a foal he did not have the movement he does now. Most jumpers are more easily recognized as the skill sets are more straight forward.
And I agree completely. A GP horse is made. It might be made from good breeding or natural talent to start with but it still had a ton of training. He never said otherwise and in fact I am guessing this man has been around a horse or two in his life. Even those who are less than suited to dressage. They do have those in Europe, you don’t need to come to NA and ride QH’s to find that.

#120

Ah – Ramzes blood! No wonder he was great. My favorite sporthorse blood ever…:wink:

And, while I don’t think anyone is arguing that “purpose-bred” horses can generally do the job better (any job), and that the rider makes the horse, the question that really came to light in this thread is: “can someone actually predict GP promise in a foal simply by evaluating gaits?”

I maintain: “not usually.”

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