Just as the title asks - how do you know? Someone said to me that a certain manufacturer’s trees have “a lot of rock.” How do you know when it is too much?
What does it feel like?
Sweat in the middle but not the front or the back.
Saddle literally can be rocked back and forth while it sits on the back. For example, I just put a western saddle on my horse that had way too much rock. When it sat on his back without a pad, if I pushed down on the back, the front lifted literally 5 inches. The bars were like a rocking chair bottom along his back.
Great question.
Wow, Sucker, moving up-n-down 5 inches is a lot.
It’s clear when a saddle has “too much rock” in English world (though we don’t even have that term. We should.)
You tell putting the saddle on the horse naked and feeling around for pressure points or gaps in pressure. Then, I ride in it and post the trot with one hand under the cantle. I might not feel a saddle move with my body while I’m moving, but I can feel a cantle un-squishing my fingers while I’m in the “up” part of my post.
My Broken Horn saddle has a lot of rock, and I’m trying to figure out if it’s too much.
Here’s what I’m doing.
First, on a saddle stand that’s just made of angled (and therefore flat) plywood. This saddle does roll back and forth way more easily than my other one. Yup, the Broken Horn has rock.
Next, I note that when I put this saddle on horses, I see a gap up at the back of the skirts. If I were riding an AQHA halter horse-- table top back and down hill-- that might be the horse. In this case, I’m pretty sure the tree’s rock is doing it.
I feel around under this saddle on horses. I’m still trying to educate myself. I do see and feel where the tree doesn’t match the curve of the horse’s back.
Then, I ride in it, doing a version of the posting test.
Last and very important, I palpate the horse’s back just after the ride and the next morning. This is the arbiter of fit: If the tree has too much rock for that horse, it will act like a rolling pin on the thin and long muscles running next to the horse’s spinal processes. That hurts, and hurts fast. Do feel around the horse’s back the next morning. To me, that’s a bit more clear and reliable than is a good feel-up just after a ride when things are all warm and wet and loose.
OP, start by looking at the skirts at the back of your saddle. How not-following-the-horse’s-back is it?
Well right now, I’m in the process of trying saddles. The independent fitter that I’ve used in the past tells me that two brands I’m considering (McCall and Martin) both have more rock in their trees than other saddles they fit. I took from her comment that it was a bad thing.
The current saddle I’m trying has nice contact under the cantle - not too much where it would be bridging and poking into his back, and not NO contact, either. It doesn’t rock back and forth on his back when I put it on and push on one end or the other.
When I’ve been trying western saddles on him, I lunge him first so I can see how the saddle moves on his back. One moved too much side-side (not these brands, but a different one), one (again, different brand) really popped up behind.
I think that I’m having a hard time with the amount of saddle that’s there. If you cinch up a saddle, of course it will have more contact in front where the cinch is tighter. Since you don’t tighten the back cinch as much, of course the back of the saddle is going to bop up and down a bit as the horse’s back moves with the propulsion of his hind end. Since my english saddles are of course so much smaller, I just don’t see that to the same extent.
At some point I wonder if I’m just overthinking this issue! I’ve found two brands that I like. I’m trying to weigh (lit and fig) the pros and cons of each so I can decide how best to proceed. McCall makes “lady” saddles that are lighterweight - check, like that feature. So far the two saddles that I’ve tried, though, don’t have stirrup channels in the trees (well, one had tapered shims added after the fact to mimic a channel, but I don’t like that), so I’m trying to find out which, if any of their trees, do. Martin doesn’t have a lady’s saddle, so it is heavier. The tree does have that channel for the stirrups, though.
GAK!!!
A lot of horses needs some rock because they have some curve to their backs. My mare is super straight and needs virtually no rock but is super wide. Tough horse to fit.
Martins are good saddles, they have some rock but not as much as some gaited saddles. Try them.
Popping up behind is usually a sign of either too much rock or not enough. Too wide or not wide enough. Regardless of why, if the saddle is popping up, it doesn’t fit.
Some of their all arounds are lighter weight and lean towards women. They have a variety of barrel saddles that may be just the ticket. Cervi Crown C is one that comes in lots of gullet widths, but spendy. Take a closer look at just the Martin Barrel Racer or the Martin All Around, these are saddles I really liked but couldn’t fit my mare. Of course, they have a Wade and rancher styles, too.
http://www.martinsaddlery.com/Default.aspx?p=saddles&sId=11
http://www.martinsaddlery.com/Default.aspx?p=saddles&sId=8
Martin does have some demo saddles. Stacey at Coolhorse.com was wonderful in trying to fit my hard to fit mare. Her rep sent me a saddle to try in the wider 8 in gullet, but it just had too much rock. But then. lots of saddles that are wider do, including some Circle Y’s I tried.
I just got a stock Courts ladies roper, its light weight and very comfortable. A little bit of rock that is adjusted by a tiny shim behind her withers, and it is wide enough. My custom Courts hopefully will fit perfectly without shimming. The shim is a strip of 1/4 in felt, thats all.
Good luck.
Wow, Sucker, moving up-n-down 5 inches is a lot.
Yeah, needless to say, riding in that saddle to determine fit wasn’t required!
Good point about being too wide in front - I just went out for a second test ride on a McCall and it is too wide in front and sits low and so it pops up in the back.
Question: In a couple saddles I’ve tried, I feel like I’m smacking the seat at the canter - like after that period of suspension, my butt comes down too hard. I’m wondering if the back of the saddle is coming up to meet me, so to speak? It hasn’t been a problem in all saddles, just a couple. Would this mean the tree has too much rock?
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7174749]
Good point about being too wide in front - I just went out for a second test ride on a McCall and it is too wide in front and sits low and so it pops up in the back.
Question: In a couple saddles I’ve tried, I feel like I’m smacking the seat at the canter - like after that period of suspension, my butt comes down too hard. I’m wondering if the back of the saddle is coming up to meet me, so to speak? It hasn’t been a problem in all saddles, just a couple. Would this mean the tree has too much rock?[/QUOTE]
It could or it could mean the shoulders are too straight for your horse and the saddle wants to slide to a narrow point which could mean dropping behind the shoulders and the back pops up.
Even a saddle too wide but the angles are right, won’t pop up. It will fit in the back but just too low in front. Your horse has pretty powerful shoulders, so you may need more shoulder room and flatter angle.
Do you have any shops that carry a wide variety of brands in a qtr to full bar that you can just try on? A Cactus may work, they have a pretty flat profile. Look at the Courts. If your horses’s shoulder is really broad and you need little rock, the Martins may not work, but wasn’t the Martin Wade a good fit?
Sorry, no magic words of wisdom, but eliminating what doesn’t work makes you that much closer to what does work.
I really appreciate everyone’s help here, first off, so thank you very much for all of your detailed feedback!
The Martin Wade was good (I thought) in terms of the angles but it also had the pop-up problem at the canter. Come to think of it, both saddle that gave me the butt-slapping problem were Wades - one a McCall and one a Martin.
This is making the other one that I thought was too wide seem better because I didn’t have this problem with that saddle. The angle was a little flatter.
Have I mentioned how much this sucks!?
Um…didn’t the saddle that you thought was too wide, shift around/in general unstable on Mac’s back?
And you probably might do well, to find some nekkid saddle TREES to put on your horse’s back, so you can SEE what is, and isn’t, close.
At that point, you will be able to ask what tree specs are in saddles (new or used) via asking the saddlemakers. And hone your try-out saddles down better.
Fillabeana, how on earth does one come by nekkid saddle trees?
Yes, the other one slid back and forth on his back, but at least it didn’t hit me in the butt! :lol:
I’m so glad I at least have my dressage saddle to ride in, and a bareback pad to go out on the trails with. :yes:
Talk to a good saddlemaker. Or a good tree maker, who KNOWS a good saddlemaker. Even the one-at-a-time saddlemakers buy a tree, or two, for their next opus.
You get a few, (generally here the saddlemaker, or treemaker comes, too) try THEM on the horse, and can see pretty well what is, or isn’t, a good idea for the horse.
Slid-back-and-forth-on-his-back is a recipe for a sored horse.
This is what I did, too. I did the custom modified wade saddle and he sent me trees and found what would fit the horse. I figured I could ride in whatever fit her. Nope, I sold the custom modified wade because it didn’t fit me…at all. Pitched me forward, wrong shape for my pelvis and stirrup placement way too far forward. The maker was in Texas and I live in Washington State, so I couldn’t just go sit in his saddles.
I ended up working with a saddle shop about 2 hours away. They do custom saddles, but they also sell Courts saddles. Their most popular tree fits much the same as some of the Courts models, so we did fit the tree to my mare.
So, I ordered a customized Courts ladies all around, but since the tree was custom, it is taking 4-6 months to finish. I sold everything but my dressage saddle and tried HARD to find an used saddle to fit this horse. I ended up borrowing a 20 yr old Courts roper that did fit my mare and was ok for me. I decided instead of spending more hours of looking for used, I just had the saddle shop order me a stock Courts ladies roper. Not perfect as I stated above, but will work until my custom comes in.
[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7175162]
And you probably might do well, to find some nekkid saddle TREES to put on your horse’s back, so you can SEE what is, and isn’t, close.[/QUOTE]
From your mouth to God’s ears… via the industry, of course.
Back when I earned my “armchair saddler” signature in Close Contact World (the worst design/no margin for error saddle ever)… and I thought about going pro, I asked aloud why I couldn’t just stock a bunch of trees and start any fitting I did from there?
Apparently, it just isn’t done in English World. I have no idea why, or why folks plunking down $5K for a fragile and make-or-break-it piece of equipment wouldn’t insist.
Are naked trees part of saddle fitting and building in Western World?
Steele Saddle Trees will send out a fiberglass form for any of their 9 saddle trees that they manufacture:
http://equi-flex.com/FTTH2.html
Their trees are used in many western saddle such as Rocking R Saddles.
Excellent, thank you!!!
