How do you train out a behind the bit problem?

[Displaced_Yankee]

As you mention this horse is green: is this horse fit enough to be asked to accept contact, engagement, bend, etc?

Fitness and strength are two things that are high on my checklist when things aren’t going right. While we try to stay mindful of walk breaks, changing up exercises and movements to work on, my horse still gets tired during some lessons (hey I only get her once a month…so we try to do what we can). His main tell is dropping behind the bit. We try to wrap it up on a good note with some leg yields and stretching when we see it. (It doesn’t happen every lesson…but some days we push a little more)

Just one more variable to the equation.

[Rosewatt]

totally agree with you on fitness and strength. I’m in the process of organizing a conditioning schedule.

[Libby2563]

@IPEsq

Ducking behind is a sign of tension, so it’s back to relaxation focus. The horse needs to follow his nose, and so this might require some total loose rein riding and then opening inside rein steering to connect the front feet to the rein first. And you can also start with such steering doing things like the left right exercise to get the horse to shift his own weight some to the hind leg without the reins. Then reintroduce the contact bit by bit, with breaks to stretch and/or relax.

Yes, methodically developing relaxation and focus has helped my young horse tremendously with his tendency to curl. Once I realized the main cause was tension, I achieved more progress in a few weeks of the work you describe than almost a year of trying to “dressage” my way through the problem. The loose rein riding also gave me confidence in him and helped him learn to regulate his own pace, whereas before I would have to be very tactful to slow him down without shortening the neck. He used to really bulge through the outside shoulder on canter circles and every attempt to steer/control the shoulder would shorten the neck more. That issue completely disappeared without me ever specifically working on it. It’s been very interesting.

[lenapesadie]

@IPEsq

I wound up putting him in a soft rubber mullen mouth snaffle.

Do you mind sharing which bit you chose? I’m thinking I’d like to try a similar bit myself.

For the record, my own horse has a tendency to curl and I’ve been slowly but surely trying build a better connection with loose rein riding (in a halter). My horse is very sensitive and will even duck behind contact on the noseband of his halter if I’m not careful.

[Jealoushe]

Contact has nothing to do with fitness. It’s part of riding a horse connected front to back which should be done in line with the training scale. Rythm, suppleness then contact. Without consistent contact the horse will not learn to trust the connection nor how to carry the bit while pushing from behind. However you need rythm and suppleness first before you can achieve that

[Rosewatt]

I agree and disagree in part. BTB issues are definitely a lack of education, so fitness/ topline development will not correct it, but from my own experience, fitness and proper conditioning certainly helps along the process, as it becomes more natural for them to assume correct positioning.

Though that isn’t why I mentioned fitness. The btb issue is almost gone and I mentioned fitness to help before we start asking for more contact/ a “frame” (though I don’t love that word).

[Jealoushe]

I think you are thinking connection and not contact. Contact is just the feel in your hand to the horses mouth. Connection would be working the horse through from behind.

[Bogey2]

I took my then 4 yr. old 17 hand warmblood to a symposium with Christoph Hess. There were 4 horses of the same age in the group…three he had do the loose rein and move them out thing. My horse he had me shorten the reins and keep asking him to step up because he was a born curler and Hess said he needed to NOT be on a loose rein but do poles, hills etc and strengthen the hind. So there are many considerations when training!

[eightpondfarm]

haven’t read all the comments, wanted to drop mine before i got influenced by others.
In my book it -behind the bit- (without previous harsh apparatus/harsh methods) would indicate: a) insecure rider who too often tightens their grip on reins to reduce speed, and b) not riding from back to front, (not riding into the bit from behind)
Both problems can be managed from the rider’s seat. Rider could benefit from a good dressage coach i think.

[Rosewatt]

That’s awesome that you wrote a book on the topic! I think it is something incredibly important to learn about. I see way too many riders post photos of their horse btb or btv vs. on the bit (they had pictures of this too), so that suggests to me a lack of education on the appearance of a horse that is actually engaged in the hindend. I’d think it is something widely known because I feel it is talked about a fair bit, but I’m definitely not seeing the changes in my own area because I certainly see horses that are quite behind the bit winning above horses that are more correct in their positioning, even at lower levels like training level… But it certainly appears very rewarded in 3rd level, specifically, as long as the rider has a fancy moving horse.

[eightpondfarm]

@eightpondfarm

In my book it -behind the bit- (without previous harsh apparatus/harsh methods) would in

@Rosewatt

That’s awesome that you wrote a book on the topic!

Oh, no. I didn’t express myself very well. Sorry!
I did not write a book, i used the expression “in my book” to mean “in my opinion”. I guess it’s too old-fashioned an expression to use on here.

[meupatdoes]

@eightpondfarm

I guess it’s too old-fashioned an expression to use on here.

It’s not.

[IPEsq]

@lenapesadie

@IPEsq

I wound up putting him in a soft rubber mullen mouth snaffle.

Do you mind sharing which bit you chose? I’m thinking I’d like to try a similar bit myself.

For the record, my own horse has a tendency to curl and I’ve been slowly but surely trying build a better connection with loose rein riding (in a halter). My horse is very sensitive and will even duck behind contact on the noseband of his halter if I’m not careful.

I went with a Nathe because my friend had one she wasn’t using anymore, and I was able to trade her something for it. I actually found my other soft mouthed but more educated horse likes it a lot in the winter versus his regular snaffle due to the cold.

It’s not for one who chews a lot or who needs the availability of strong brakes due to the material.

My youngster seems to slightly prefer an eggbutt cheek, so I’m thinking of switching to a Trust flexi soft with eggbutt cheek (not available with the Nathe). Similar shape and material in the mouthpiece from what I can tell.

[lenapesadie]

@IPEsq

It’s not for one who chews a lot or who needs the availability of strong brakes due to the material

I probably give him too many cookies for that but to work well for us then!

Thank you for sharing all those details. Very informative. I was thinking of a D ring as that seems to be the snaffle he likes the most but I haven’t tried an eggbut on him yet.

[Blugal]

My go-to would be solving it on trail rides.

Make sure the bit and bridle are comfortable (sometimes a thinner bit is better than thicker), and play around to see what they like. Hacking on mostly long reins in fields, then adding some straight line trots with light contact, and up a rise, canter too.

They’ll be enjoying looking at life so much there won’t be any curling. Now, add a few minutes of ring work and discipline yourself to keep it light and fun. Will do wonders.

[luvmyhackney]

For my ASB that curls so easy, I have to raise my hands to make sure the bit is in soft contact with the corners of his mouth, so lifted up almost, and not the bars, and apply lots of legs for activating his rear engine. It feels like a want him to go up an imaginary hill. If he’s curling, it’s generally my fault for using the bit on his bars vs his corners. It’s much easier since I found a bit he enjoys, his preference is a Myler comfort snaffle. He hated the nathe bit and rubber was a complete no go. To thick for his mouth.

I’m sure sometimes it’s tension, but his tendency when he is tense is high head, nose out, and snorting.

[IPEsq]

@lenapesadie

@IPEsq

It’s not for one who chews a lot or who needs the availability of strong brakes due to the material

I probably give him too many cookies for that but to work well for us then!

Thank you for sharing all those details. Very informative. I was thinking of a D ring as that seems to be the snaffle he likes the most but I haven’t tried an eggbut on him yet.

The rough equivalent to my bit in a Dee would be the Sprenger Duo. I don’t think Nathe (although made by HS) has a D option. Trust also makes Ds I think, including in their thinner mouth option.

[IPEsq]

Oh, and my horses get plenty of cookies too but they don’t do a lot of chewing on the bit.

[EventerAJ]

Some things to try: nathe or duo bit as mentioned above. Something soft that encourages a horse to take contact (many of them will lean on it, and at this stage that is what you are encouraging). Also, use a neck rope. A simple piece of twine will do; loose enough that you can hold it comfortably in a deep sitting position with hands in a normal place, but if you moved your hands one or two inches the twine will begin to put pressure on the base of the neck.

Ride the horse forward, into very soft contact with the nathe (soft elbows!), and give rein aids simultaneously with the neck rope. Drop the reins to the buckle if necessary and ride mostly off the neck rope if he curls that badly. Get the nose out. Ride forward. Teach him contact can be very light, but steady, and signals with the neck rope will encourage him to lift the base of the neck and discourage rolling under to “hide” from the bit.

[lenapesadie]

I was just looking at the Duo. I kinda think he would want more tongue relief. His tongue seems thick to me. I’ll check the trust out too. Thanks again!