How does this happen?

[Willesdon]

We had a rider challenge her elimination for error of course because she Most Certainly Did Not Jump The Wrong Fence!! Control had allowed her to run on as it was an Unaffiliated but she was stopped for jumping the wrong fence just a bit further around the course. She didn’t argue that one.

As it happens, there were three FJ at our fence and each of us have done Olympics, Worlds, Europeans, so are what might be termed “experienced”. We had immediately reported her error over the radio and had written an extra note on the score sheet about what happened. The TD, when he came to speak to us, was just deeply puzzled why this woman was so very insistent that she was right and why she was still arguing some hours later. She finally gave up when the videographer took the time to search his card and she was shown the video evidence.

[OverandOnward]

She was probably absolutely sincere in her belief that she jumped correctly at that fence.

One of the very few that I’ve missed … actually, I jumped the level up! In a line of similar small-medium-large obstacles. Ironically, a couple of years later, I JJ’d another rider who did the same thing.

The experience of riding XC is an exercise in ‘stacking’ of sensory input. In addition to all of the usual things to think about on a jumping course, there is more consciousness of footing, weather, track, distance, etc.

Interestingly, the sound can be significant. A strong sound of galloping and the horse’s heavy breathing, as well as the wind of the pace going past one’s ears (even at lower levels), can be very, very loud. (Why stewards on course use flags to stop riders, who may not hear them.)

Horse behavior is, of course, a constant point of focus, reaction and coordination.

The brains of riders and horses tend to cope with XC by means of tunnel vision of just what is in front of them. I rarely remember seeing (or hearing) JJ’s or any other human on the course, although I know they are there and can see them on videos.

I don’t know about all riders, but I follow the course by landmarks and pattern, and don’t always see jump numbers. I wouldn’t trust myself to know for sure that I just jumped 9, so if the next one isn’t 10, that’s a problem. I might comprehend that, but maybe not. Personally I don’t rely on jump numbers.

All of this experiential input tends to contribute to mental mistakes and misperceptions that the rider may not realize in the moment, or later. It’s not unusual that what a rider thinks happened is not what a video shows.

[JenJ]

All riders should be required to volunteer as jump judge or dressage scribe or tack check or runner, etc. at least once every two years.

It is highly educational for riders to understand how things work behind the scenes, and also to realize how many volunteers are needed at every event so that we as competitors can do what we love.

[OverandOnward]

If your horse is out of commission for some reason, or you don’t have a ride for a time, volunteer.

[OverandOnward]

If you have the time and really need to feel useful, contact the organizer and offer to give them an entire day of “will do anything” for a day, or a week, before the event. It is educational and also a great benefit to people who need the help. It is unbelievable the long, long list of tasks that has to happen before the first rider goes up the centerline on the day.

Things you could end up helping with in the days before the event (someone else is in charge of each): Putting stall card numbers & names on the stalls. Entering stuff in the computer. Putting up the flags on the obstacles. Stuffing registration packets with promo items. Organizing promo items and prizes. Measuring and setting the stadium course. Setting up yellow parking tape. Laying out the ribbons for each division. Cleaning up the office and registration check-in desk. Putting fresh batteries in radios. Organizing fresh score sheets. Driving the truck with the XC jump decor; handing items from the back of the truck to the official XC decorator person. Driving event officials from the airport. Etc. etc. etc. And meeting a lot of other people involved with staging the event.

[Rnichols]

I haven’t read all the replies (yet).I will, but felt the need to say something now (while I’m still irritated enough to say it lol)

But this is absolutely ridiculous. This is the area championships. Certain people want the Olympics to be held at that venue. And Given what I know about a friend of mine having to argue her placing (someone got a pair of 20s, the score sheet was “lost” (like that’s an excuse) and they didn’t correct the placing themselves), my thoughts on the organizers of that particular event are low. It’s irritating.

We all work so hard to be able to compete in this sport, and then people are out there finishing on numbers when they missed an entire jump. People are out there picking up 20s and hoping it slides. No. You KNOW you got a stop. I’d even argue that you know you missed a fence, or someone you know knows you missed it or SOMEONE saw you miss it. If you miss a fence, you (should) get a TE.

Yes I realize these people are volunteers but this is unacceptable. This is not a “oh it happens sometimes”. And I guess if it is a “oh it happens sometimes” then why am I spending all my time, energy, money and sanity competing when events can’t even be run in accordance with the rules. Honestly.

Also - you 100% should cause a ruckus. I’ve started speaking up on literally everything because I’m sick of watching people skate between the lines (or in this case blatantly crossing lines).

Ted Talk over.

[Xanthoria]

Honestly you’re right. But my understanding is that there’s 30 mins for anyone to come clean and/or dispute the results, otherwise the results stand? And it costs $100 to take it further?

Agree that the score keeping seemed… tenuous at that event. I read about a couple issues here on COTH and now this…

[Rnichols]

Yeah, unfortunately I’m not sure what can be done at this point. I found the video and it’s clear as day the jump was missed. I have a friend in that division placed (barely) beneath a primary color, so it’s just unfortunate for her too. There are very much useable prizes for people in 1-3rd spots. Sucks to miss out on that.

Not to mention - horses sell for 6 figures in this sport. Results matter. It’s not just about a prize and a ribbon.

[Jmkessler20]

This was my division. It absolutely should not happen. The jump judges being volunteers is not reason enough. There is a judge for every fence. And yes, there is a period where one can contest standings… but if the jump judge didn’t even notice, I don’t know that a bystander would have. I’m so upset to learn about this. I’m sure the rider had no idea, she is a lovely person, but it should not have been missed.

[Willesdon]

Thank you for that insight. I had not considered the importance/role of sound.

[trubandloki]

@Xanthoria

Yeah I’ve volunteered to do that, but actually radioing in that someone jumped a jump when they didn’t? Or is radioing in each rider as they jump each jump not required at all events? It has been at all the ones I have been to.

I wonder if more likely it was not radioed in that this rider jumped that jump and the void of nothing about that rider and that jump was accidentally assumed that rider cleared the jump.

[Jmkessler20]

But you probably got a TE, not a victory lap? Haha

[Jmkessler20]

You are so right, RN - it isn’t just this show and a ribbon. At the very least, records should be updated to accurately reflect the show results. Even if prizes aren’t corrected. A 2nd and a TE are very different.

[OverandOnward]

So now that we know some reasons such errors can occur , …

… and we know that people who attended that event are participating on this thread …

… and now that we are also narrowing in on the specific jump judge …

… may I suggest that we avoid too much negative commentary about a volunteer, the jump judge, whose name will be known to some. Who may even be reading.

Some lessons learned on points where the error could’ve been caught by people with a more official role are well taken.

[Janet]

I am going to reply separately to several points

@Xanthoria

I’m not going to raise a ruckus as I am going to assume the rider didn’t do it on purpose, but HOW did the jump judge miss that? Surely they radioed in “rider # clear fence x”?

Final scores are based on the WRITTEN score sheets, NOT on what is reported over the radio.

The radio is useful for keeping track in real time, for calling for the EMT, vet, fence repair, the need for a hold on course, or identifying when a rider has too many (cumulative) stops on course. But the radio is NOT the basis for the actual scores.

[Janet]

@Lusoluv

We had a junior rider in our group who did jump the wrong fence (higher level). 100% a newbie mistake. Our trainer had her go to the show secretary and self-report her error. It moved her from first to 9th,

If she jumped the wrong fence (and didn’t also jump the correct one), she should have moved to 1st to Technical Elimination. She should not have received a placing of 9th.

[Xanthoria]

@OverandOnward

may I suggest that we avoid too much negative commentary about a volunteer, the jump judge, whose name will be known to some. Who may even be reading.

Agreed. Human error is real, and I think we all appreciate the heck out of all volunteers here. Mistakes happen - I hope no names are named as it does none of us any good! Possibly there is no recourse at this stage, but the effect on competitors is real.

[Janet]

@Xanthoria

Yeah I’ve volunteered to do that, but actually radioing in that someone jumped a jump when they didn’t? Or is radioing in each rider as they jump each jump not required at all events? It has been at all the ones I have been to.

There is no requirement to “radio in” each jump. In fact, there is no requirement for all the jump judges to have radios.

Besides, not all radio reports get through to “control”. Sometimes two people talk at the same time. Sometimes the signal is two week. Sometimes there is static.

And, as stated above, the results are based on the written score sheets, NOT the radio calls.

[JenJ]

and, in my experience, when there is a fall reported or a call for vet, medic, every other jump judge is told to stay off the radio, do not report rider X clear over fence Y, etc.,

leave the frequency clear for communication between control, vet/medical and officials.

[Janet]

@OverandOnward

Course Control should be gathering radio reports of every single rider, every single fence.

EV163.4 says

CONTROLLER. During the Cross-Country phase, there must be a controller. The controller is responsible for the overall facilitation of the Cross-Country phase, and including but not limited to, directing emergency response in the event of an accident of disruption. The controller should have extensive knowledge of Eventing.

While it is often true that the Controller ALSO keeps a running score sheet, that is NOT a requirement, and that score sheet is NOT the source for the results.