How does this happen?

[Xanthoria]

At an event I was at recently, someone skipped an xc jump and got a primary colored ribbon with no record on useventing.com or on the event’s results page. I only know this because I was just watching youtube videos of the event and you can see in one long pan the rider jumping fence 13, galloping past jump 14, and jumping fence 15. I even checked the course map!

I’m not going to raise a ruckus as I am going to assume the rider didn’t do it on purpose, but HOW did the jump judge miss that? Surely they radioed in “rider # clear fence x”?

Does it happen more than one thinks?

[Lusoluv]

Most jump judges are volunteers. Some have more experience than others - some have better attention spans than others. I rode at a show and heard I was DQ’d for jumping a Training level jump in the water complex as I walked back to stabling. I KNOW I didn’t do that and thank God my friend videoed that portion of XC on her phone. We showed it to the TD and were reinstated. We placed well.

We had a junior rider in our group who did jump the wrong fence (higher level). 100% a newbie mistake. Our trainer had her go to the show secretary and self-report her error. It moved her from first to 9th, but she learned an important lesson about sportsmanship.

Stuff happens…

[Xanthoria]

Yeah I’ve volunteered to do that, but actually radioing in that someone jumped a jump when they didn’t? Or is radioing in each rider as they jump each jump not required at all events? It has been at all the ones I have been to.

[furlong47]

Were judges watching more than one fence? For example, the same jump judge was on 14 and 15, was distracted and missed what happened at 14, called the rider in as clear after 15? I’ve jump judged before where I had 2 jumps semi-close together and there weren’t enough volunteers to cover all.

I’m assuming you know that this event had jump judges, because I can totally see that happening at a starter trial where riders self-report and the person may not even realize they skipped it.

[OverandOnward]

Course Control should be gathering radio reports of every single rider, every single fence. But anyone who has even been in the vicinity, of course Control, and heard the continuous radio calls, can understand that it could be confusing. Someone could easily put a checkmark where there should not have been a checkmark.

Many course control have a volunteer assistant. Who may be inexperienced. And checking things before they should.

If someone is unsure about how to mark the record, they tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the rider. They didn’t hear fence number 14, well somebody must’ve called it in, they just missed it, so let’s mark it done.

Cross country can be a bit overwhelming to all involved.

[Xanthoria]

Yes - it was state championships and there were jump judges though you’re right - likely watching more than one fence, even tho these three were fairly far apart, and the missed fence was up a hill along a track on a ridge, so the jump judge would have had to miss about 15? seconds of traveled time completely to miss that skipped part. The rider didn’t go up the hill, along the ridge, and jump down a log at all - just stayed on the lower level and galloped a straight line. It was really a very obvious and significant error of course - not just riding past a jump they were meant to jump.

[Xanthoria]

I could totally see that - it must be chaos!

[Willesdon]

Course Control is like a very busy aircraft control tower, with multiple tasks happening simultaneously over more than one radio network. I’m always amazed by their habitual good humour and calmness when other volunteers put in a less than competent performance over the radio, such as Jump Judges failing to report incidents as they occur. Not a job I could do as my language would get a little too salty in some circumstances!

[FitToBeTied]

Let’s not jump on volunteers too much. Often they are not eventers or horse people. Events are short volunteers all the time. The last time I jump judged I covered three fences.

The fault I’ll find with eventers in this situation is that many of them don’t volunteer. I’ve known many that evented for years but never volunteered.

[CWNSF]

I was at an event this summer where the rider had a rail down in SJ -literally the fence in front of the judges. Waited for it to be reflected in the results and it never was so rider honestly reported it during the dispute period but SJ judges swore up and down they knew exactly which fence they were referring to and that it was just a hard rub (it wasn’t- there was a video but rider didn’t take it with them to dispute). Rider ended up winning (should’ve been 3rd or 4th with the rail) and got AEC qualifying result.

I chalk it up to sometimes $h!t happens at events and it goes both ways ( in your favor/not your favor)

[enjoytheride]

It happens, although I’m shocked the rider posted the video and had it been me I probably would have emailed someone when I watched the video and sent my ribbon back! Often a JJ will get confused about horses going out of order, have their sheets pre ordered, and mark a stop on the wrong horse.

I assume in this case Control didn’t see that part of the course, nobody disputed it, and that was that.

[OverandOnward]

@enjoytheride

Often a JJ will get confused about horses going out of order, have their sheets pre ordered, and mark a stop on the wrong horse.

Hopefully not! JJ’s are reminded not to pre-number the sheet.

But as a JJ, I fully understand the urge to pre-number – that must be resisted!

It is hard to describe the experience of seeing a rider coming, often bent over and can’t read the pinney, while a lot is going on with horse & rider. The other numbers may not be visible – on the other side, or too much horse movement to distinguish them.

Things happen fast and the numbers are only in visible range in front of the JJ for a few seconds.

Plus, if you glance down at the paper to write the number, you may miss seeing the jump! (I have had that happen!)

Once the number(s) are actually in range to be visible, the JJ often tends to be concentrating on how horse & rider are performing, more than they are getting the number. Sometimes with distracting factors and conditions – wind blowing noisy branches, heat, cold, maybe rain.

It is crazy how easy it can be to miss seeing a number that would seem to be placed where you can’t miss it!

Not to mention that not everyone has the best eyesight.

Horse is galloping away, very quickly beyond number visibility – wait, what number was that ??? Well if I look at the score sheet and the last one was 35, so this one must have been 36. Right? I call it in on the radio.

But wait – the next one is 38. What happened to 37? At that point, what happened to 36? Since I didn’t see that last number clearly.

One of the horses didn’t start? Refused out or retired earlier in the course? Maybe that last one was actually 37, not 36?

So we call it in to the best of what we know – hopefully course control has the real info and can sort out any discrepancies! But maybe course control has confusion as well.

Then it is all up to the office where scores are entered. They have the job of interpreting all of the pieces of paper they have – the score sheet, the course control sheet … etc. They may see conflicting information – so what happened with 36 and 37 at jump 14??? 36 who retired at jump 10 went on to jump 14? 37 who did the whole course never jumped 14? Hopefully all of the JJ’s wrote their cell phone numbers on their score sheet!

It can be surprising that JJ’ing can be more complicated than just ticking off each rider as they go by. Things can happen fast and the JJ doesn’t always see everything. Plus every other factor, inexperienced, distracted, adverse weather, etc.

Ideally there are two JJ’s with eyes on each and every jump. One of them has the mission to get the number above all else, the other one focuses only on horse & rider navigating the obstacle. But that’s fantasy, given that volunteers can be scarce.

It is very, very helpful when course control updates the JJ’s on which numbers are a scratch, retirement or elim. But many don’t.

I love an announcer who is calling a few XC jumps with the rider number, that I can hear, to help me know WHO is coming my way next! And who is NOT!

[enjoytheride]

Having score run for many years they’re all told not to number their sheet but someone always breaks the rules!

[Xanthoria]

@enjoytheride

I’m shocked the rider posted the video and had it been me I probably would have emailed someone when I watched the video and sent my ribbon back!

The video was only uploaded by the video company last night so they haven’t had a chance to do the right thing. In fact, if they didn’t notice missing the entire loop of course while riding it they may not notice on video either.

I’m going to chalk this up to “there but for the grace of dog…”

[enjoytheride]

I mean I missed the finish flags at a show so…

[Xanthoria]

Yes I have jump judged before and it was stressful!

This situation though? They’d have to have turned away for at least 15 seconds to miss the rider skipping an entire loop up a hill and over a big drop.

And if another ride was accidentally eliminated for skipping a jump at championships because of a number mixup I bet they would protest.

That situation I am mystified by.

[OverandOnward]

Sometimes riders don’t know that they missed a jump.

I missed one once. I carelessly walked a course that I thought I already knew. The course path had been changed slightly in one area. The rest of it was the same.

I was so pleased with that ride until all my friends were saying “you missed jump 16!”.

No I didn’t! I jumped them all!

They showed me the course map and explained the change. I just had not seen it because I wasn’t paying the best attention to the jump numbers when I walked the course. It was a really dumb mistake.

I saw something similar happen when I was a jump judge and a course that hadn’t changed much in the last few years added a loop. You could tell the people who didn’t think they needed to walk the course, because at least 4 out of a division of 35+ missed that entire loop.

And it’s possible for a rider on CrossCountry to just get confused in the ‘fog of the course’. Not realize what they have missed.

[Laurierace]

I once had a rail in stadium and ended up winning a double clear. I told them they must have missed my rail because I definitely had one which knocked me down into second so they corrected it and gave me a first and second place ribbon. It was just a schooling show though.

[JenJ]

back in the days when one was allowed to continue after elimination, I had a refusal at a fence that I was afraid of. I decided to go past it rather than try again, and jumped happily and safely around the rest of the course.

My score showed one refusal rather than elimination. I suspect the jump judge was recording my refusal and when s/he looked up I was cantering away so jump judge probably figured I must have jumped it on a second attempt when s/he wasn’t looking.

I told the secretary what happened. I wanted the experience of finishing the course, I did not want to unfairly get anything other than an E.

[JenJ]

When I have jump judged, the instructions were that if the pinny number could not be clearly seen, to write down description of horse and rider … ie. grey horse, rider wearing red, etc.